05 June, 2008

To marry or not to marry? That is the (French) question ha!

Okay, right. So this may not be your regular UAE-related post. But I thought it might be of interest to you (read: I’m curious to know what UAE citizens / expats living in a Muslim country think about it ha!), so please humour me! :)

The highlights: A French court granted a marriage annulment to a Muslim man in April on the grounds that his wife (also Muslim) had lied about her virginity. It was deemed that the husband entered into marriage under false pretenses and that the woman's virginity was a "determining factor" in his decision to marry her. The wife accepted the ruling.

The news hit the media last week, sparking an uproar amongst French politicians, women's rights campaigners and French Muslim figures alike. After first supporting the ruling, Justice Minister Rachida Dati made a U-turn and asked state prosecutors to file an appeal. Urban Affairs secretary Fadela Amara, a practising Muslim and women's rights activist, called it "a fatwa against women's emancipation."

You can read the facts here:

http://www.france24.com/en/20080529-marriage-annulment-muslim-france-bride-virgin-religion-justice

And some reactions here:

http://www.france24.com/en/20080603-france-repeal-annulment-fake-virgin-marriage

http://www.france24.com/en/20080604-embattled-justice-minister-gets-presidential-backing-justice&navi=FRANCE


And now, for your own reactions! Should the French court have granted the annulment? Virgin and non-virgin thoughts welcome! ;)

45 comments:

hemlock said...

how is this a "fatwa against women's emancipation"?
if you have to lie to be married, then what is the marriage based on? great way to start a relationship.
and what does any of this have to do with religion?
a million and one muslim men will and so accept "non-virgins". they just know what they are getting into - no pun intended.

BuJassem said...

If it were to me, I'd be more interested in what's between my future wife's ears, rather than legs.

African Queen said...

How about him, is he virgin?
In the developing world these cases are common and women go for traditional stitching... to become virgin for the wedding night.

Rami said...

hemlock

It's a 'fatwa against women's emancipation' for a couple of reasons.

First off, it reinforces the age old mentality that a man can do whatever he wants before marriage, but a woman who does so is 'damaged' The simple truth is that it's practically impossible to prove virginity in a man, whereas it's relatively simple in a woman.

And that brings me to the second point. In this particular case, the marriage was based on a lie, yes. But women can lose their hymens in many ways that don't involve sex. This ruling sets a precedent that marginalizes those women too.

And as mentioned in the article, the only thing this will lead to will be an increase in the already large number of women who are having hymen reconstruction surgery, just so they can bleed and keep their husband happy.

Rose in Dubai said...

Yes, a marriage based on a lie is never going to be a strong one, but if the guy is this shallow the girl is better off without him anyway.

seema said...

I think it's simple. She lied about something that was important to the guy...so he has the right to seek divorce.

If you're told your husband is fit but he ends up having a physical deformity (as an example)...you would not tolerate it.

Not everyone is going to se 'whats between the ears'. To each his own. So let's stop being judgmental.

And please...not another arguments that is warranting an attack on Islam and Sharia. I don't think anyone here is qualified to speak from that perspective. And it's a religious issue, so nobody cares what each individual thinks the ruling should have been.

Kyle said...

And now, for your own reactions! Should the French court have granted the annulment? Virgin and non-virgin thoughts welcome! ;)

The French Court should have thrown out this case invoking the separation of State versus Religion chapter PERIOD

Moreover, this case does not set a precedent but only demeans, in this instance the woman, which is not right.

P.S.: Hey Bridget, why’s your blog off limits? Come on for once, get rid of your closet skeletons and be blasé!

Seema:

If you're told your husband is fit but he ends up having a physical deformity (as an example)...you would not tolerate it.

There’s a solution for this you know! Courtship, before walking down the aisle!

Whats love got to do with it... said...

Have you thought why the girl lied?
She lied because that is the only way she could get marrid without a jerk bringing her past everytime they had an arguement.

Many of the guys who say they don't care about this issue, actually lie. They do care about past relationships and being the first is always important.
Why, some say "if she cheated and broke her fathers trust and did the forbiden for someone who she happened to like, then who am I for her to stop her from doing this in the future with someone else that she might like"...some say "its about the ego, we don't want others to have experienced her the way I will"...some will say "it is haram" while they have slept with at least one other.

It is Hypocricy...it has nothing to do with religion, as both men and women are punished the same for that sin, if that sin came out to the light WITNESSED by four consenting adults.

People make mistakes, but culture have allowed men for ever to get away with it when it comes to relationships and sin, even in the west, the change have been recent and to be honest its also gone to the extreme to yet again serve the men.

Until there is a good balance and adherence to the religion, then women will lie, about being virgin, about having more than 1,2, 3, 4 relationships in her past, about having a one night stands...

blogforthought said...

What I'm interested in is why the marriage was annulled. From the sounds of the story, the marriage was consumated, so the question of annullment should not have arisen.

Why didn't the guy give her a divorce?

Anonymous said...

The woman was a slut, the guy a douchebag. wah wah wah.

We have the 1st none fat rich white guy running for (basically) the CEO of the only super power on God's green earth, we have earthquakes, tornadoes, cranes falling, traffic accidents galore, I cant find a set of decent performance tires (yes, even that is more news worthy than this) the sky is probably falling, the ozone layer is dead, gas is rising (oddly enough) in a country that produces it and THIS, THIS is news worthy?

2 people didnt get along, and for whatever reasons didnt want to try (come now, Ive heard of much sillier reasons for annulments,) 2 sorry excuses for human beings. a whorish liar and a man-whore douche-tard, PLUS it happened in a country where (I think) isnt even near the UAE... Yep, UAE community blog.

I really want to slap the poster.

Can I next post about how I had pizza hut and now have diarrhea? Even that would be more news worthy than this. at least that would include some sort of entertainment value... some corn-filled turds...

This is A Blessing in Tragedy BTW.

Hatem said...

I think that marriage based on a major lie comes to a critical path when the lie is disclosed, apart from the virginity issue. To divorce or not; it’s better to be decided by the couple themselves without courts and media!

Anonymous said...

I prefer mine to be locked and secure till the day we hold hands

Thanks

UTP said...

hehe...French can come with the best stories on the internet...

ColOman said...

Its fine if she is not as long as she did not lie. Its like being married and marrying a 2nd wife and forgetting to tell her so.

You can not enter a marriage with a lie.

Anonymous said...

Arab men are hypocrits when it comes to virginity issues...no matter how open minded they seem or claim to be...they want her a virgin if she is an Arab for some reason i is ok if she is not virgin if she is a westerner..

I believe it is a matter of trust...as someone said above...if she broke her fathers trust and went against the teaching of her religion then nothing wil stop her from doing that again in the future, even a man who loves her and who she loved... LOL

Bridget Jones said...

Ta everyone for your diverse and valued opinions, it was kewl of you to stop by, Bridget appreciates :)

Anonymous June 7, 00:18, you say:

"if she broke her fathers trust and went against the teaching of her religion then nothing wil stop her from doing that again in the future, even a man who loves her and who she loved..."

Is the point here that she would be undeserving of her husband's trust because of precedence?

Well then, based on this reasoning, shall we similarly understand that a Muslim man who has sex outside marriage, thereby going against the teachings of his religion as far as I know, will keep on doing it in future, even if he is with a wife whom loves him and whom he loves...? Thus, also undeserving of his wife's trust again based on precedence?

Bridget will be back later to respond to some other comments guys, she's in a bit of a rush at the mo.

Oh, Anonymous, June 6, 04:49, you are so cute! I'm flattered you bothered - and so lengthily at that ha! Careful with that diet now boy! ;)

Proud Emirati said...

^^ Didn't u just generlize about 600 million male muslims? Sorry, I stopped reading the remaining of ur post !!

Whats Love got to do with it said...

Bridget,
I am not justifying, nor am i agreeing with the concept of trust. I am just trying to explain how people here sees it...
And yes, PE, most men with past relationships are not embarrassed to "demand" a virgin, with "no experience" wife...
A man who had many many relationships can have the nerves to sit down and lecture women on how it is important to stay pure.

Thats why it is difficult to take men seriously these days...they talk rubbish.

blog.this.s said...

Seema, Kyle, you both are so right on. It has neither to do with religion nor sex. The simple fact is she lied-he married her under false pretenses. He is divorcing her, via French legal system, on that point alone irrespective of creed and its related doctrine.

DUBAI JAZZ said...

Whats love got to do with it... said:

She lied because that is the only way she could get married without a jerk bringing her past every time they had an argument.

Is that right? couldn't she have thought at the moment that her exact effort to obscure the issue will end up making her story a shewing gum for the public?

I agree with my friend Bu Jassem ^^^^^^^ ....but this one, as was said above, is about a big lie and indeed a false pretense. What did she have to lie to him? if she did what she did and was confident she's doing the right thing then she shouldn't lie. "ok hunk, here's the deal, take it or leave it" she should have said.
This guy, for whatever reason he had, was aiming (no pun intended) for a virgin but didn't get one. Although it should be said that this guy is an asshole par excellence.

Thanks for bringing up these contentious topics ya Briget. :)

Lirun said...

i guess i would reverse the question..

was her virginity the thing he loved about her the most?

is it more important than any of her other qualities?

Whats love got to do with it said...

Dj...
You talk like Mike, but you think like Midhat.
You know VERY well why she lied ...what he did was the answer.
God knows how they met and how she felt about him...You know a muslim guy would think twice before marrying a divorced women, let alone a woman who had sex without marriage...
No man would forgt, let alone forgive that "dirty" part of her life.

So take off Mikes hat to remind your self why she lied..

Don't fool your self and us and pretend it would have been right to say the truth in that case, the truth in her case would be an end of a relationship and end of future relationships with a Muslim/ middle eastern man...and the begning of many gossips and scandals...

As they say Yalahweeeeeeeeeeee


"if she did what she did and was confident she's doing the right thing then she shouldn't lie." Yeah right, at the time she might have, but when the relationship doesn't work or end in a marriage then most girls realise it was wrong...

DUBAI JAZZ said...

What the love has got to do with it,

Her lying to him is still wrong. We’ve got two conflicting cultures at work here: one that doesn’t approve of premarital relationships; the other doesn’t mind them. The man identifies himself with the first one. He wanted her to be like him. She should have known that when push comes to shove (pun intended), he’s going to find out. It seems she was planning to put him under a de facto situation where he would have to make hard choices.
But aren’t we all just speculating here? How do we know that she indeed lied to him? did she give him a written statement prior to marriage? Maybe he didn’t even ask?

Anonymous said...

Cultural or religious arguments aside, is lying to someone a legal reason for divorce?

After all, this was heard in a French court.

Sets a dodgy precedent if you ask me. Courts could be overflowing soon!!

Whats love got to do with it said...

DJ hayaty...

You have no idea how many girls got away with just faking virgiity and geting away with it without even going to the surgeon to fix it.

Seems like he was one with some good experience...most likely with a virgin...that he was able to find out :) so he should identify with the girl he screwed (pun intended and not at the same time)


Arab/" Muslim" men..you should learn by now...what goes around comes around...

Bridget Jones said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Bridget Jones said...

Yo folks, merci for the further insights! :)

Rami, to add to what you say, from what I've heard, bleeding does not always occur upon losing one's virginity. Jeez, how to convince the guy in such a case?! That's gonna be.. a tough nut to crack ha!

BuJ, always good to read you! Surely you would also be concerned with what's between her.. boobs! Don't you think what's in her HEART for you matters? ;)

Seema, agreed, no one is qualified here to talk from a Shariah perspective. It was not the point of this post girl. However, Bridget for one is interested in individual views, regardless of what Shariah says. And apparently she's not the only one :)

You raise an interesting point. Tell me, if one ends up with a hubby who hid a physical deformity, surely it does not mean automatically asking for divorce, does it?? If it is a love marriage especially, doesn't love, understanding and forgiveness have a role to play..? I was told Islam preaches tolerance, forgiveness and for Muslims to hide the shortcomings/ defects of each other so that God hides their own shortcomings/ defects on Judgement Day, no..?

As you say, each to their own and I respect your views. I'm only trying to encourage debate and reflection over different perspectives here, cheers.

Kyle, this Bridget has become cheerfully blasé, all without the aid of a blog! The 'off-limits' is a technical glitch, she doesn't blog anymore, all skeletons have been uncovered ha! ;)

Wots luv gotta do with it, thanks for clarifying the point I raise in my previous comment, and all the insights! What does Yalahweeeeee mean?

Proud Emirati, you didn't get me, I aimed to show the double standards with my comment, not to draw a conclusion about 600 million male. Of course, one should not generalise about men or assume their future actions based on precedence. But similarly one should not about women, don't you think..?

Blog for thought, he didn't ask for a divorce "because divorce entails a failure to live up to the obligations of marriage. In this instance, there was a flaw from the start." (quote from the article)

Hatem, agree that divorce is a decision between man and wife. The wife didn't object, so there was agreement between them. However, they married legally in a secular state so have to be divorced at court. As for the media..

Dubai Jazz, glad you like the contentious issues!

You say "We’ve got two conflicting cultures at work here: one that doesn’t approve of premarital relationships; the other doesn’t mind them. The man identifies himself with the first one. He wanted her to be like him.". My friend, you are assuming he is virgin! There is no mention whatsoever of that - yet - in the case..

Lirun, by the look of it, sounds her virginity was all that matters to the bloke.

Anon, June 8, 10:20, the French legal system accepts lying on 'ESSENTIAL QUALITIES' as grounds for filing for divorce, without however qualifying 'essential qualities. Should virginity be considered an essential quality ,is the current debate in France. But tell us, what does British Civil Law stipulate w.r.t divorce? :)

Question for the girls:- HYPOTHETIC situation: You've had sex before marriage. Would you consider surgery to become virgin again for your wedding night?

Question for the blokes: would you prefer your bride to tell you the truth if she is not a virgin, or have recourse to surgery to keep you blissfully ignorant of her past?

DUBAI JAZZ said...

What the love has got to do with it;
My Karma sheet is pretty balanced (I hope!).
Look, all I am saying is that she, with the ‘baggage’ that she’s got, was better off with another guy. There are still myriads of guys out there who could see beyond the feeble rubric(?) membrane. Although to be fair, things are not equally easy for girls to find out the track record of their prospective partners.

DUBAI JAZZ said...

Dear Bridget, I am not assuming he’s a virgin. I could actually conclude from the way the story was told that he’s a veteran. A maverick, if you know what I mean. But there are many hypocrites out there. Who are ready to ‘inflict’ on other people things they may not wish to have in their own backyards. We can take a diversion to politics with this if you like. lol!

DUBAI JAZZ said...

Btw Bridget, because my French isn’t that great; I couldn’t find the story anywhere. I am still curious to know how will he be able to prove that he was conclusively promised a virgin bride???

Whats love got to do wih it said...

I am married and never had to consider that option, but If I had lost it for someone else and wanted to get married to a muslim (which I am) I would sure get it fixed and lie about it.

Believe me that is the safest option, unless you want to be known in the community as the B*tch who slept around..you keep it a secret forever....die with it in your grave...


LOL, sounds very retarde...but you deal with things in a certain way given the circumstances...and I consider it one of those white lies...which I believe in.


I should start up a blog about my friends...you will sure understand why those girls lie.


Yalahweee is a sound egyptions make in Emergencies..don't know if it is a word...close to "oh my God"..

DUBAI JAZZ said...

What love has got to do with it,

I’d love to read your blog when it comes out; it’d certainly enlighten me on the subject matter!

Seriously, let us know when you start blogging.

Bridget Jones said...

I'll second that. A blog please Luv, so we can all understand the cultural differences/ implications better.

BTW, no, it does not sound retard. Says who any one culture/ set of values/ people sets the standard for the rest of the world? Nah, our diversity is what makes us beautiful and interesting. Don't apologise for a reality that is yours.

Dubai Jazz, feel free to go for the political digression, you're already a bit of a lawyer I can see! ;) Nopes, no element of an answer in the papers yet as to the conclusive promise to virginity.

What do you mean you can't read the articles? They're all in English! You didn't even try the links you.. you... You! Check them out :)

Lirun said...

i dont know that genital modification for social purposes is part of the beauty that subsists in diversity..

i think calling it any less than tragic - that a guy can go and enjoy all the world has to offer with no consequences while women are branded and repressed for what might be anything from a single moment of pleasure to a deep love that faded - is simply unfair..

Lirun said...

check out this cartoon about it..

http://fr.news.yahoo.com/delize/20080529/img/pen-dessin-du-jour-comment-85a7f34dd8640.html

BuJassem said...

"BuJ, always good to read you! Surely you would also be concerned with what's between her.. boobs! Don't you think what's in her HEART for you matters? ;) "

Ah, Bridget,, you love kicking a fuss with your controversial topics eh? :-)

You will do well being the next Oprah... :)

Btw, what is the difference "heart" and "cleavage"? One is behind and another is between the airbags :)

Joking aside, you're right.. I'd be much more interested in her heart rather than other "specifications"!!

DUBAI JAZZ said...

Bridget,
A lawyer? I wish. At least then I’d have read the links before opening my mouth!

Love your photo, btw. May you never run out of ink!

DUBAI JAZZ said...

My friend Bujassem, talking of ‘sepcs’ and airbags: one would wish that man is also entitled for ‘fa7s mo3ayaneh’ before clinching such kind of deals!

Anonymous said...

Marriage is the death of Hope

it was just a couple of summers ago
annie met gary
they moved to eachother
so in love

the future was their canvass
and life was their paint
but annie, she wanted gary to wait to do it
until their wedding day

gary said, "ok annie. that's alright I can wait."
"But let's get married right away"
soon enough that wedding day rolled around
and it was a very beautiful wedding

you know the kind
after the wedding everybody went back to a big reception
at annie's mother's house
and it was a great party

there was a band, there was food
there was so much love in the air
and annie
annie grabbed a bottle of champagne

she grabbed gary by the hand and they snuck away
from the party
they went downstairs
down to the laundry room

down int he basement
down to the laundry room
soon they were rolling around in the laundry
down in the laundry room

rolling around rolling around
rolling around rolling around
then gary
hit his head on the dryer

he hit it pretty hard
in fact
gary is dead
oh, gary's dead! oh!

if she hadn't waited, then they couldn't say it
a virgin bride is a virgin widow today
if she hadn't waited, then they couldn't say it
a virgin bride is a virgin widow today

Bridget Jones said...

Erm.. Lirun, I would have thought it was plenty clear that I do not condone the double standards, and that my comment on beauty was of a general nature re: different cultures and beliefs... Did everyone else understand my words in the same sense as Lirun?? Jeez, clearly my English is not as good as I thought ha!

I still maintain BTW that Luv must not be apologetic for what she would have had to do in her circumstances.

Hopefully that clears things up, if not let's then shift to speaking French ha! ;) I checked out the link, 'page no more available' is the message I get.

BuJ, me raising controversy? Never!!! ;) Bridget Jones, the next Oprah.. Hmmmm, now, there's a thought!

Glad to know we're on the same wavelength as regards specs btw! Yeah me too, that'd be first on my list, with personal values, personality and the right mix of brainy/sporty a close 2nd, 3rd and 4th. The Ferrari comes 5th ha! ;)

Dubai Jazz, merci for the kind wishes:) That may be all the push I need to work on that best-seller! ;)

But hey you two, what's this calling a lady's charms airbags?! A bit of poetry gentlemen! :)

Nice one Anon! Doubt the Gary I know would have died ha! ;)

Inspire Your Mind said...

LOL .. LOL.. LOL..

This topic brings a never-ending discussion for sure..

I don't know why non-virgins expose themselves to the humiliating act of 'stitching' just to fool her naieve husband and start out her marriage life with a big lie.. if he's experienced enough, he would know she's non-virgin even if she stiched her stuff !
I agree with BuJ that what's between those ears and boobs matter the most.. but with the same token, what's between those legs is important as well.. If she's a non-virgin; just make sure she didn't catch a sexually-transmitted disease and if she did that she was adequately treated for it.. the same of course applies to the gentelman under the spot ! HIV testing as carried out in UAE is not enough.. screen him and her for Hepatitis B and C, and vaccinate both of them against HPV ( Human papilloma virus).. that's the latest in the field !

Mars said...

the man is a shallow jerk. the woman was dumb to marry the guy. you can't annul a consummated marriage. you can get a divorce.

plus some women don't bleed. either because they lost it by not having sex, or their hymen is super-stretchy, or because they never had one to begin with.

Anonymous said...

I am a Muslim guy and I take that it is forbidden to have sex out of marriage. So I am and will be a virgin till I marry.
When I marry a Muslim girl, I take that she is a virgin if she wasn't married before. It is our responsibility to tell the other in case one of us has had sex or were married before.

If I had sex before marriage it would be fine with me if the girl did the same but not when I've never had sex.

Anonymous said...

I hope this guys name is not Mohi Din Binhendi. I know a guy name Mohi Binhendi who owns a Mega Yacht in Dubai International Marina and he treats his crew like shit. For the last 6 months so many crew including the captain and the chief Engineer has been deserting the Yacht and running away from the Yacht. He treats his employees like shit. No one will work for his yacht. Conditions are so horrible. No water no food and I have seen the crew has been begging food at the Dubai International Marina. The Yacht name is "Escape" Please ask the Marina staff and other Yachts if you have to work there. He will never pay you if you work there. Be careful. He is an big Assole.

Anonymous said...

Yes! You are right. The owner of the super yacht ESCAPE at Dubai International Marina is having difficulty finding crew. Basically he pays very low wages with no food and water. Now he is finding cheap crew for low wages from Asia. Crew has been absconding this yacht since last year as the conditions are horrible for the crew. This includes the Captain and the chief engineer too. He had a one hard working captain, who was working day and night. I told him that Mr. binhendi do not appreciate his work and do not care about any of his hard working employees and to be careful of him. I think he is from India and he too left as he could not handle the pressure and the work load. I have seen now he is working for a top UAE VVIP Yacht in Dubai again. This guy can’t be so bad as he has got a better offer now than Binhendi’s Yacht ESCAPE. He told me that he liked the Binhendi’s boat but could not work as the conditions were so low without food and no communication response from any one. Cheers mate if you have to work there you better think twice and get references from the Dubai International Marina first. Basically you will be working free and paying for your own food and water for 2 years. This will be a paid toothache.

Post a Comment

NOTE: By making a post/comment on this blog you agree that you are solely responsible for its content and that you are up to date on the laws of the country you are posting from and that your post/comment abides by them.

To read the rules click here

If you would like to post content on this blog click here