07 May, 2009

Two Trips to The Kingdom...

I just got back from my second visit to The Kingdom of Saudi Arabia – a two-day business trip to help a Riyadh-based consultancy with its communications initiatives.

Getting there, being there and even leaving there created a host of mixed feelings (click here to see the short vid).

My first weeklong visit to The Kingdom in February 2007 almost didn’t happen because of the onerous process in securing a visitor’s visa. As a woman, I was required by the Saudi embassy to produce written permission from a male relative (in my case my ex-husband), to make the trip.

I say in my video clip that this type of situation was unprecedented for me, but that’s not quite true.

I had forgotten (as I recorded myself yesterday in Riyadh), that I needed my then-husband’s permission for many things, such as getting a driver’s licence or being employed, when we first arrived in the UAE in 1993.

I remember how frustrated I felt in those early days as an expat that I wasn’t allowed to have my own bank account, let alone apply for a credit card simply because I was a woman. I felt like I had stepped into the Stone Age.

(Read the rest here)

100 comments:

Anonymous said...

How dare this woman insult the beautiful culture of this region!

If she wants equality and justice she should go back to where she came from.

We don't want so called "modernists" in our country, we like our medieval way of living, and if she doesn't like it, well, like i already said, she can go back home!

Stained said...

Who you perceive as extremists are religious leaders for us who believe in following the Quran....
If you've got a problem, don't ever go back to Saudi for Business...

Dubai Entrepreneur said...

Heh.. I still have to write NOC's for my wife to renew her labor permit. It's really funny. I usually write something to this effect (in Arabic of course):

"I have no objection to my wife, so and so, working wherever, whenever and for whoever she pleases. My wife is a free woman and is not my slave and as such, I ask you to extend her the same dignity you extend a free person."

I'm sure someone in the labor department is having a laugh when they read it :)

amazingsusan said...

Anonymous:
LOL. You crack me up :)

Stained
Good point - one person's "terrorist" is somebody else's "freedom fighter."

I hope I will have the opportunity to visit The Kingdom again one day, so I can learn more about its people and their way of life... Although I have felt uncomfortable when I've been there, my trips to KSA have also been rich and rewarding experiences in many ways.

Dubai Entrepreneur
If every I need an NOC, I know who to call!

BuJassem said...

what an insulting post from an ignorant sensationalist woman.

if you are bent on insulting Saudis, Arabs, Muslims like you've just done, perhaps you would have decided to drop the veil when you recorded in private. Oh wait a minute, adding the veil is just more sensationalist, and a perfect way to reach more ignorant people.

imagine neil armstrong giving his interviews when he came back from space in a half-arsed space suit (coz that's what your hijab looks like, dear), everyone would call him silly and OTT.

i mentioned mr armstrong because that is what you look like.. as if you're secretly filming from outer space, and not the country next door.

also, hidden beneath the fake smiles and compliments about the country are serious respect issues. many people do not agree with the Saudi way of doing things, including myself, but I still can offer a friendly and respectful way of disagreeing with them.

as civilised human beings, this should be at least the minimum standard we dish out to others we do not agree with.

good luck with any future travels and i really hope you manage to learn from future experiences even if you find some aspects uncomfortable. nothing like being paid good proper Saudi oil money I guess...

Kyle said...

'I think too, that in many places, small numbers of extremists hold entire nations hostage, making it extraordinarily difficult for change to occur.'

Susan:

I'm in absolute agreement with this line. But in the exceptional case of Saudi Arabia, make that internal as well as excessively-external; theologically brainwashed elements, I mean!

A Blessing in Tragedy said...

as civilised human beings...

Thats you problem right there, assuming that the west is civil. They are among themselves, and with anyone who surrenders to their way of doing things. a difference however, brands people as uncivil, brainwashed, un educated, living in the stone age...

Westerners just cannot live knowing that a different way of life exists. Impossible.

hemlock said...

i havent seen the video and have no desire to.

i come from a muslim country where we attend co-ed schools, ive studied art & music, and theatre & puppetry are a part of the culture...
also... women drive. =P

much as i would like to visit saudi for Hajj or Umra, i know i cannot enter the country without a male guardian. when i get a male guardian, i'll visit.

in the meanwhile, im going to enjoy my bank accounts and credit cards and the UAE driving license. and that i dont need a male guardian for any of the above.

applause for UAE if it has come this far in less than 15 years - granting the women an independent status.

DE: so you have to write NOCs for your wife to continue work. is it REALLY that big a deal? you would rather your opinion wasnt taken into account, but does it hurt you that your consent is sought?

to which you would reply, your wife's opinion isnt asked when your visas are renewed.

your wife wouldnt be in this country if it wasnt for you. and while the both of your are here, she remains your dependent. which is not the same as her being your slave.

Kyle said...

('much as i would like to visit saudi for Hajj or Umra, i know i cannot enter the country without a male guardian. when i get a male guardian, i'll visit.')

Hemlock:

Which is not a good principle IMHO. Because at the end of the day, no human being or group - no matter what their religious indoctrination - has the right to play God and prevent another from making a spiritual journey / pilgrimage.

Al-ain Rose said...

I can't understand some of their (non-islamic) stupid laws. more than 40 yrs back ppl have invaded the space and walked on the moon and Saudis still argue about women driving the cars.??

Saudies do not represent islam & muslims by the way. they only represent themselves.

Al-ain Rose said...

hey where is the insult in what she said ?
you are right, women in middle east still haven't yet get all their rights, but don't link that to Islam plz,Islam gives men and women equal rights, Islam gave women their rights but stupid traditions and laws deprived us from practicing them. Islam has got nothing to do with the tradtions, don't mix up those 2 things, god! women during the lifetime of the prophet even used to fight in battles beside men! and saudis still believe that women are not allowed to drive? O_o!
and btw, why did u look so scared and talk in whisper while u filming?? and why were u wearing Abaya & shaila inside ur room?

P.S: I suggest you to read a book called " Great Women In Islam", it tells you alot about women rights in Islam. that if you are interested.

Al-ain Rose said...

We don't want so called "modernists" in our country, we like our medieval way of living.
............
congratulation on ur medievsl way of living, mabrook 3aliak/y etta'7aluff. WTF ?????

hemlock said...

kyle, i dont think this is as much a religious issue as it is a practical one. a single woman travelling alone to a foreign country where she doesnt speak the local langauge leaves her a vulnerable target for unpleasant experiences.

if you think about this rationally, im sure you'd agree with me :)

A Blessing in Tragedy said...

Islam gives men and women equal rights.

Where it matters, yes. But "equal" is a debatable term. Islam acknowledges that a man and a woman are... dun dun dun! DIFFERENT.

And thus the whole of rights given to men are different than those to women.

Logically, putting all the hippy western hypocritical BS, it makes sense.

A Blessing in Tragedy said...

if you think about this rationally...

thats funny, about 3 or so people on here think rationally. wasting your time Hemlock.

A Blessing in Tragedy said...

Who you perceive as extremists are religious leaders for us

Kind of like how the people who we consider murdering lying sacks of worthless nothing you consider political leaders!

Kyle said...

('if you think about this rationally, im sure you'd agree with me :)')

Hemlock:

Just because you used the word 'rationally', I'll concur with you otherwise I was all set - finger on the trigger - to fire-away my metaphorical bazookas ;)

Proud Emirati said...

Couldn't agree more BuJassem and ABIT. They cannot overcome their superior imperialistic complex.

Anonymous said...

That video is absolutely hilarious. Anyone would think that you had been kidnapped and was trying to send a secret message out of the magical kingdom. You mention that you felt 'uncomfortable' and had feelings of constraint. H E L L O you were in Saudi Arabia. You are rude to judge their country and compare it against yours in the west. SO RUDE. I am in shock that you would dare to even say such things. BTW I stopped watching at 2.02 because you are worthless. Glad to know you are in Dubai, I shall be looking for you. And trust me, if you think Dubai is 'easy' and you can get away with bad mouthing their brother then you had better think again. No abaya necessary here, but they are watching you. TWAT.

amazingsusan said...

Interesting comments...:)

amazingsusan said...

BTW, there are all kinds of extremist groups around the world. I wonder why many of you wrongly assumed that my intention was to single out *Muslim* extremists...

Proud Emirati said...

because the topic was about Saudi Arabia? Are u trying to look smart?

Dubai Entrepreneur said...

hemlock,

I think you are missing my point. I just think it's silly to ask me to approve whether my wife should seek employment or even get a driving license. I think it is insulting to my wife. My wife is not my dependent. She is my life partner. I guess my view on this is not shared by the government here.

So, it's fine. I accept that this is their way of doing things. I don't like it, but I comply. All I get out of it is to write my NOC's with a touch of sarcasm.

Nobody gets hurt.

amazingsusan said...

BuJassem,

If this is your version of a "civil...friendly and respectful way of disagreeing" with me, I'd hate to see what an insulting comment might look like LOL.

With all due respect to your right to an opinion, I think you have greatly misjudged me and my intentions, and I'm sorry you feel as you do.

If you explore my blog you will find many posts in which I speak out for Dubai and the UAE (where I've had the pleasure of living for 16 years).

During the course of my stay, I've been privileged to work with people of many different races, religions and nationalities, including of course Emiratis.

I've also ghost-written a semi-autobiographical book on Abu Dhabi for a prominent Emirati businessman; it has sold tens of thousands of copies and been translated into seven languages.

Among the things I most enjoy about living in the UAE is the rich cultural diversity and range of perspectives that people of all nationalities bring to the mix. It's interesting to have learned yours.

Al-ain Rose said...

Where it matters, yes. But "equal" is a debatable term. Islam acknowledges that a man and a woman are... dun dun dun! DIFFERENT.
........
Duh? O_o
if I gave u 2 kg of Orange. & I took 2 kg of apples. we have EAQUAL amounts of DIFFERENT fruits.
orange = men's rights.
apples= women's rights.
fruits= rights in general.
2 kg = same quantity of rihts.
differnt friuts= differnt quality of rights.
some thing like.. dun dun dun! ...qualitative VS quantitative.

amazingsusan said...

Proud Emirati,

No, not at all.

What I wrote is: "I think too, that in many places, small numbers of extremists hold entire nations hostage, making it extraordinarily difficult for change to occur."

There are extremist groups all around the world (e.g. Shining Path in Peru, Sinn Fein and the IRA in Ireland, although they are not as active as they once were).

You can find a whole list of extremist groups here: http://books.google.com/books?id=b8k4rEPvq_8C&pg=PA302&lpg=PA302&dq=peru+extremists&source=bl&ots=2J59gjc7TA&sig=-jHLfPegfRvUqtJYvy-NOtCCz3M&hl=en&ei=JksFSoufKZrLjAfW5djVBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3#PPA309,M1

Again, it was not my intention to single out *Muslim* extremists.

Anonymous said...

"...making it extraordinarily difficult for change to occur."
dear...changes always should come from within and never from outside so let saudis alone that little by little they are making their own jobs...you should learn first about Islam to talk about it, show more respect of this Great Religion... all your comments show your great ignorance about Islam.
PS, take a time and read about Islam not from newspapers but from right sources... lot of people in the west, being tipically western people is turning on Islam just becouse it is a great religion not as is seen by ignorants that not take enough time to learn about, and if you dont want this time or dont want to take enough time to do it, just donst speak about things that you dont know dear.

Anonymous said...

Well said Al Ain Rose :-)

a question of a question said...

Anon May 9th 15:33:

".... show more respect of this Great Religion..."

". . .lot of people in the west, being tipically western people is turning on Islam just becouse it is a great religion ..."

so which other religions are "Great"?

L'Insolente said...

I used to think expats exaggerated things re: the culture here. But after being in daily contact with Arab culture over the last month, I've changed my mind. It is a backward mentality. Full of racism and paranoia against the West. Think every westerner is out to bleed them dry. It's pathetic really.

Get on your high horses and insult me as much as you like here, but my mind's made up by what I have witnessed.

L'Insolente said...

And please, stop equating Islam with Arab culture. It's two different things. Don't go on mixing them as one. Thanks.

amazingsusan said...

"changes always should come from within"

I'm 100% with you on this one dear, both on micro (individual) and macro (national) levels.

However, I'm sorry to say that as far as I can recall, I have not talked about Islam in any of my blog posts, articles or comments.

Although I am not religious myself, I have great respect for people who practice whatever happens to be the religion of their choice, whether it's Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Budhhism, etc.

I don't know where you got the impression that I was talking about Islam...? I clearly said in my original post:

"It’s not my place to judge others. Neither is it to suggest that one way is better than another. We should all have the right as individuals, as well as nations, to follow our chosen paths."

I'm not Muslim, and it's not my place to talk about Islam. However, I have been told that tolerance, peace and charity are among the many wonderful practices that are part of Islam.

But maybe I am wrong in this, perhaps I have been misinformed? If I am, I would gladly like to know more...

Thank you for your kind advice dear :)

Anonymous said...

Saudis still argue about women driving the cars.??

I agree, its stupid to still be arguing about this. ALL women should be banned from driving. period. Would have saved me 12K in paint and body work last year.

Al-ain Rose, Not arguing with you, actually I am agreeing, God gave men and women (through Islam) the same Qualitative rights. But when quantified, they are not the same. Men were given MORE in terms of number of rights. You can twist it, and "re-evaluate" or "re-interpret" all you want. Fact is a man can divorce and a woman cant, and man can go to umra without his wife, a woman cant...

You kind of proved my point. men and women were given the same rights in different ways. but quantitatively, men were given more.

DE. Fact of the matter is your wife is your dependent, and as such you are responsible for her here. Everything has to be oked by you for that reason. And in the case that some legal issue does come up, they have a written record of your consent.

You act like this is only related to women. I am a man, I needed a letter from my father to get a license. At 26, I need my father's permission to get married... Why? I'm his dependent. Simple.

Anonymous said...

I have been told that tolerance, peace and charity are among the many wonderful practices that are part of Islam.

If you want to think about it fundamentally, those are attributes of most of the world's religions.

As for you being wrong. No, you arent. However expecting every "muslim" to reach that level of excellence is pretty ignorant.

I for one have no dilutions that I am a perfect Muslim. I try. But God created too many stupid people for me to be "tolerant, peaceful, and charitable" towards.

Tests.

hemlock said...

anon: "I agree, its stupid to still be arguing about this. ALL women should be banned from driving. period. Would have saved me 12K in paint and body work last year."

the fact that it was a woman driving cost you only 12k.
had it been a guy driving, you wouldve paid with your life. :)

DUBAI JAZZ said...

L'Insolente said:

//It is a backward mentality. Full of racism and paranoia against the West.//

Somebody needs to save this quote somewhere; it's beautiful.

CG said...

Wow, nice post Susan...why so dramatic in your video? Was it necessary to wear all the 'garb' and to whisper like the kidnappers were behind the door and about to pounce on you? Or was this your way of showing the world how retarded Saudi Arabia is, based upon their religion? I think so, and I do not find it humorous at all to mock the country, who so graciously allowed you entry. Yes dear, your comments regarding the abaya and shaila were pointed at the religion, after all, they don't wear them for fashion.
I was going to commment on this yesterday but I was too busy cooking for 5 hours for the guests, and you would probably consider that slavery on the part of my husband.....

Anyway, back to you. At least we know what you look like now. There is nothing I detest more than foreigners thinking they can make comments on other nations, I mean....W T F .....go back to wher you came Susan, trust me, this is no land for you.

Anonymous said...

These debates seem to go on forever, with no resolution.

The defenders of "Islam" consistenly say that these "barbaric and medieval practices" have nothing to do with Islam and that Islam is a "religion of peace and brotherly love" etc....

Perhaps it is; in theory. Just like Communism in theory is great too, but we all saw what happened when it was put into practice.

I don't care what it says in the Quran, look at every single "Islamic" country in the world. Every single one of them is a mess.

What is the one single common denomintor between Indonesia, Palestine, Eqypt, Iran, Saudi etc..etc...it's not their cultures, or their people...it's the backward religion that was forced upon them that has stiffled progress and change.

It is this religion that has ruined all these beautiful countries, whether it be the great liberal society of Persia, or the beautiful Mughal culture of Pakistan/Northern India, or the Great Empire of the Pharaoes in Egypt.

The swarms of barbarians from the Arabian Peninsula rode down on this part of the world like a plague, bringing their barbaric tribal traditions and forcing our beatiful Middle East, with it's great cities of art and science such as Baghdad, and Damascus, and Shiraz, and Cairo
to cover their beauty with the "Abbaya" of hate and intolerance.

How much more advanced and prosperous we all would have been, had we been able to repel these tribes and their message of hate.

Dubai Entrepreneur said...

anon @ 09 May, 2009 23:15

If by 'dependent' you mean that I am her "sponsor", then yes. And if WHAT happens exactly? She, gets into a car and DRIVES?!

A "dependent" is generally someone who is "Relying on or requiring the aid of another for support" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dependent). My wife is fully capable of supporting herself if I was abducted by aliens later today. I am her sponsor out of convenience, not need. But, right.. perhaps, by immigration's definition, that makes her my dependent. I'll give in to that.

Dude, seriously.. if you think this is "normal", then I have nothing to say to you.

Now, like I have said, it is their country, their laws.. so I comply. This doesn't change the fact that I think it is stupid. I am, whether anyone likes it or not, free to think whatever the hell I want :)

Maybe it's time for the UAE to follow in Bahrain's footsteps and do away with the whole sponsorship business.

Al-ain Rose said...

God gave men and women (through Islam) the same Qualitative rights. But when quantified, they are not the same.Men were given MORE in terms of number of rights
.......
hehe, I said the reverse, rights are different not quantitatively but qualitatively, I know complicated, drink some coffe and you will get it.
Anyway, the prove is in Quran : Alla said:

" ولهن مثل الذي عليهن بالمعروف "
in english: "The women have rights, as well as obligations, equitably" ... 100 lines under the word " methl" and "equitably" ... Allah says methl and you say MORE?. no dear, it's methl!

so, the (same quantitavely) but different in the kinds of rights she got. //_*

Al-ain Rose said...

God ! LOL
you ATE the woman alive !!! I don't see any insult in what she said. she was like women in middle east haven't got their rights.. yes, that's true, we are deprived form most of our rights.we live in a male dominated society. yes. Men make the rules,yes, men decide,, men are prefered...etc
in short, no matter how many of world's highest building we have, 90% of women here live under the shadow of MEN.unfortunatly.
I know I'm gonna be cursed of what I said but anyway it's true.

Al-ain Rose said...

@ the barbarian Anonymous @ 10 May, 2009 11:08

those (Islamic) cities flourished only after Islam. you need to correct the wrong historical information you have. :)

amazingsusan said...

Hmmm. I'm really surprised and saddened by the vicious attacks, hateful comments and anonymous personal threats that have been generated by my blog post, the intention of which was simply to share my experience.

I've lived happily and peacefully in the UAE for 16 years. I've traveled throughout the Middle East (to Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Yemen and Saudi Arabia).

I've worked with and befriended people of all races, religions and nationalities. I have never experienced anything remotely like this barrage of hate, especially not from Emiratis who I have found to be open, warm and welcoming people.

I find all of this ill will ironic as I have actively and widely defended Dubai and the UAE on my blog and in comments to the international media. I also feature the stories and achievements of Arab and Muslim women from all over the world (including the UAE), on my website.

I am deeply sorry that some people seem to be so offended by what I said and wrote in this particular post.

On the other hand, I'm also encouraged to have received positive comments and emails from two young male Saudi Nationals who saw my video on YouTube.

One of them said:

"Thank you Susan for sharing your experience. I appreciate the time you spent and the effort you put for making this video."

After I emailed him the link to this blog, he replied thus:

"Thanks for the email, Susan. I read your post and some of the hate comments you received by my fellow citizens. I felt ashamed of such comments; therefore on behalf of them, please accept our sincere apologies.

I honestly don't understand why they attacked you like that. You haven't insulted anybody in your post or in your later comments. In fact, you were rather polite..."

Anonymous said...

@CG "There is nothing I detest more than foreigners thinking they can make comments on other nations, I mean....W T F .....go back to wher you came Susan, trust me, this is no land for you."

Lol...so no Arabs or Muslims will make comments on Western government, christianity, Israel (or perhaps utilise common American-isms like WTF? :-))

And no Westerners can comment on the Middle East, and no Brits can comment on France? And no Indians can comments on Pakistan?

And we should all go back to 'where we came' and live in ethnicity based societies only?

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Whether you agree with it or not, or whether it is well informed or ignorant is another matter.

I believe the (generally low standard of) debate that takes place on this board demonstrates that.

fellow atheist said...

anon @ 10 May, 2009 10:49

I always find it annoying when people like you make such ignorant posts. Just to be clear: I'm an atheist.

Islam (and other religions) provided a framework for living life. Islam, unlike other religions, also provided a foundation for governance. In that, it is by far the most advanced of all the major religions.

Granted, Islam and other religions have what you or I may consider "objectionable". I don't think Islam has a monopoly on "barbaric" issues. If it wasn't for Islam, this entire region would still be in tents. The only time you would hear about Saudi Arabia is when some explorer on the Discovery Channel decides to go visit the desert.

I strongly suggest you do some research and read some history books.

What stifles growth is not religion, it is the inability of its followers to evolve. The more conservative (unfortunately this word is such a loaded term, but I mean strict and literal adherence by it) the population becomes, the less likely you will find them flourish.

Why go back and history? Let us take a look at the US today and the past 8 years. Notice a pattern?

You know what, let us not even apply it to religion. Look at the Arabic language. It is guarded by those who wish to keep it as pure as possible. As a result, as a language, it hasn't evolved much. The English language has approximately 700,000 words compared to Arabic's 200,000.

The trick is to balance between protecting the essence of a culture (or language) and its ability to adapt and survive (Darwinism -- at the end of the day, those who can't adapt, die).

So, please spare me your ignorant rants about Islam. You know nothing about it.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous at 10 May, 2009 17:26

You should watch what you speak. There are people on this board that can pull you in right out of the screen ;)

samuraisam said...

anonymous @ 17:26:

"You should watch what you speak. There are people on this board that can pull you in right out of the screen ;)"

You acted in the poltergeist or something?

Anonymous said...

I think Susan's sincerity is quite obvious here. Yes there are things in all Muslim countries that need fixing. There is no point putting our heads in the sand and pretending all is fine and dandy. At the same time I understand the commenters who feel threatened and defensive about their culture and country and religion; there has been so much criticism, especially from the Western world, that we feel very sensitive about the fingers pointed at us.

There are women who feel constrained by the life in Saudi Arabia, and others who feel protected and secure within it. There will always be people who feel both ways. Susan was expressing her opinion, which she should have a right to do, without being personally threatened or insulted. Those who disagree with her also have a right to do so, but let us show our Islamic "adab" or manners and courtesy within the discussion! (I am a Muslima though I do not live in an Arab country).

samuraisam said...

anonymous @ 17:26:

Also passing along some questions here, does the size of the screen matter? or the resolution? or refresh rate (75 Hz > 60 Hz)?
And also will deactivating scripts prevent people from being pulled through their screens? Will I be safe if I use lynx?

L'Insolente said...

@ Dubai Jazz

If only the Arabs I've been dealing with over the last month had more of your sarcasm and less of the paranoia...! Why, yours truly might just never have spoken those words that caught your attention!

Alas, as things stand, that's one hope nipped in the bud. They see plots and hidden agendas and treason everywhere. It's next to moral harassment if you ask me. Lord, give me courage.

So yes please, do frame those words of mine, I'm sadly afraid I'll be standing by them for a while to come yet.

Anonymous said...

while in the west, when you are a muslim you don't wear abayas or a hiyab, it is matter to dress modestly and not revealing, but you must wear an abaya and a hiyab to pray, so, to see this woman whispering and wearing a hiyab , a dress to pray as a fancy dress outfit, really for me is an insult, you say that you lived in islamic countries for several years but believe me, posting this video although taking good intentions as you say to share your experience in Saudi show that you didnt learn anything and you didnt still understand the lands where are you living now, Saudi is the sacred and holy shrine for muslims around the world, try to understand dear, it is not so difficult!!!!! and to be covered like you are in this video is an insult. Why dont you tape this video weraing your own outfit while in the hotel?, I covered myself to pray and speak with God, come on dear, try to understand whot you made.

amazingsusan said...

"Will I be safe if I use lynx?"

LOL. You can run but you can't hide!

And don't get on the wrong side of anonymous 09 May, 2009 10:02, or s/he'll be looking for you along with me. Sadly, Dubai is no longer a safe place for me to be :(

amazingsusan said...

Anonymous @ 10 May, 2009 19:19

Truer words were never spoken. Thanks for being a voice for balance and reason.

Anonymous said...

" ولهن مثل الذي عليهن بالمعروف "
in english: "The women have rights, as well as obligations, equitably" ... 100 lines under the word " methl" and "equitably" ... Allah says methl and you say MORE?. no dear, it's methl!

1st off, please post the WHOLE Ayah, as so:

وَلَهُنَّ مِثْلُ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِنَّ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ وَاللَّهُ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ (2 :228)

In English:

And just as according to [society’s] norms these women have obligations [towards their husbands], they also have rights, although men [as husbands] have a status above women. (2:228)

So are you going to start posting 1/2 ayahs again and making them mean what you want?!

Methil does infact mean the same... the same as known in AL MA3ROOF (norm). And you somehow (very conveniently) chopped off the whole second part of the ayah that states that oh, but men have dominion over women.

PLUS! This whole Ayah, is talking about rights of a man and woman in a marriage. You can not attribute it to be universal. Other Ayahs might talk about inheritance rights, or divorce rights, or...

Anonymous said...

JEDDAH - A Saudi judge told a seminar here on domestic violence that it was okay for a man to slap his wife for lavish spending.

Jeddah judge Hamad Al Razine gave the example of overspending to buy a high-end abaya, the head-to toe black shroud Saudi women have to wear in public, as justifying a smack for one’s wife.

“If a person gives 1,200 riyals (320 dollars) to his wife and she spends 900 riyals (240 dollars) to purchase an abaya from a brand shop, and if her husband slaps her on the face as a reaction to her action, she deserves that punishment,” he said.

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle08.asp?xfile=/data/theuae/2009/May/theuae_May259.xml&section=theuae

amazingsusan said...

Anonymous @ 10 May, 2009 20:57

I see and understand your point of view. I'm sorry you feel insulted.

CG said...

Susan, why do you say that you are sorry that someone feels insulted? If you cannot apologise for insulting them, then what is the point to being sorry? It appears that you understand very little and cannot see other points of view at all. All you have shown is that you want everyone to understand that you 'meant' no harm to anyone and was just trying to convey how scary it was for you. You also go on to express how much support you have received (2 persons I believe)....do you know that if you were still in Saudi Arabia you might face a tough time in court trying to convince a judge that you meant no ill towards the gracious Kingdom when you were imitating them in your video?

Anyway, this is wasted typing. I have no ill feelings towards you Susan, but a great amount of sympathy. It is so sad that you can live in these lands for so long and yet learn so little.

Al-ain Rose said...

(Saudi) is the sacred and holy shrine for muslims around the world.
..
Excuse me?
you mean (Makka) & (Al-Madeenha) only, I mean, the kingdome town in Rhiyad isn't a holy place, is it?

Proud Emirati said...

Yes CG, the likes of her (and the majority of the ones living in the UAE) decide to isolate themselves and live in their ghettos than trying to understand the culture.

Al-ain Rose said...

ok ,, sorry for cutting off the part that make men feel good about themselves. but I hope you understand what does " وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ"" mean.. it doesn't mean that you are better, or (as u believe) you have MORE rights, NO,by all means.

enjoy:
وللرجال عليهن درجة (. قال ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما: الدرجة إشارة إلى حض الرجال على (حسن (العشرة)، والتوسع للنساء في (المال) (والخُلق.


so, having a higher status actually means that you have MORE responsibilities !!& MORE obligations!!.
frustrating, I know.

Anonymous said...

“If a person gives 1,200 riyals (320 dollars) to his wife and she spends 900 riyals (240 dollars) to purchase an abaya from a brand shop, and if her husband slaps her on the face as a reaction to her action, she deserves that punishment,” he said.

I agree. And the prophet PBUH said that al tharb al ghair mubrih was infact ok.

If you need that translated... You should have learn Arabic.

I have "twacked" my sister (who is 10 years older than me) upside the head for stupidity.... of course I get a twack back! lol. but she's my sister, so its cool.

My fiance has gotten a few twacks for various reasons... Then again, so have my brothers.

Lots of people around me get twacks...

Anonymous said...

Why in the first place should civilized, intelligent people have to hit each other to get their point across? Can't you explain your position or make your displeasure known with only your words, not your hands or fists? I think the beauty of Islam is that it teaches us to control our temper and our nafs. Hitting a woman (or a man, or a child) on the face is hardly something to be proud of. I have seen my own aunt beaten with black eyes and bruises on her face, by her husband because he thought it was okay to hit her. Believe me it is not, no matter what a judge says.

- a Muslima

amazingsusan said...

CG, I find it interesting that you and others here have been so quick to judge me.

As I have already said, I am deeply sorry that some people have taken offense and feel insulted by what I wrote and said.

On the other hand, others have not been offended whatsoever. Some have been supportive.

Maybe it's not the material itself that is offensive; perhaps it's how the beholder sees it that's problematic. We all perceive things differently; we all have a right to an opinion.

Contrary to what you say, I understand very well that others view things differently than I. That doesn't necessarily mean that I agree with them.

It's possible to respect someone's view, while holding an opposing one. It happens all the time. Although, to be honest, I haven't seen much evidences of people on this blog being able to discuss dissenting positions in a respectful manner.

I don't know whether you are a man or a woman, CG. Like most of the people here you choose not to reveal your name or your face. It occurs to me that anonymity is a safe place from which to disparage and attack others.

I also notice that you have what many people might consider a sexually provocative profile picture.

Some people might even find it offensive, especially in a Muslim country. Others might think it's inappropriate for a Muslim, if you are Muslim, to use such an image to represent themselves. I don't, but others might.

Whatever, if any religion, you practice, clearly you are comfortable with the photograph, otherwise you wouldn't have posted it on your profile. If others were offended by it, that would be their problem, not yours.

I wasn't imitating anyone in the video. I was in Saudi Arabia where modest dress is required. I was wearing an abaya and a shayla because I was about to walk out the door to the airport.

Regarding learning, I hope to continue to do so until the day I die.

Your offer of sympathy is very kind, but I don't need it thank you :)

amazingsusan said...

Proud Emirati, you are right: I lived in a ghetto, but not the kind you think. I had a very small place in Satwa, where I was surrounded by poor people and labourers living in squalor.

Last august I was evicted from my home and it was bulldozed to make way for a development.

You can read about it here:
http://www.amazingwomenrock.com/myblog/why-blame-it-on-dubai.html

L'Insolente said...

As I said before, stop mixing backward Arab culture with Islam. The judge's okaying a man hitting his wife because of an expense she incurred IS NOT IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TEACHINGS OF THE PROHET.

I will not quote ayahs and hadith from memory, but what I do know for sure is, 'hitting' is a symbolic gesture, not an actual one. When the Prophet was asked to explain the \
'hitting' that the Quran referred to, he said it should be with a MISWAK, i.e a symbol to show displeasure of the husband with the wife when all other avenues to speak/ communicate etc. have been pursued without success. AND he also specifically said to avoid the face.

For those who don't know, miswak is the Arabic brush, you know, that stuff mad from the bark of trees or something like that.

Now, again please. Slapping the wife is allowed in Islam? Like hell.

I would suggest we all stop acting like we know Islam inside out and go find out about it for a change.

AND ONCE MORE, PLEASE STOP EQUATING PRESENT DAY BACKWARD ARAB CULTURE WITH ISLAM.

BuJassem said...

guys cut it out... i think the 15 mins was reached ages ago!

A Blessing in Tragedy said...

Al-ain Rose said...
ok ,, sorry for cutting off the part that make men feel good about themselves. but I hope you understand what does " وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ"" mean.. it doesn't mean that you are better, or (as u believe) you have MORE rights, NO,by all means.

enjoy:
وللرجال عليهن درجة (. قال ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما: الدرجة إشارة إلى حض الرجال على (حسن (العشرة)، والتوسع للنساء في (المال) (والخُلق.


so, having a higher status actually means that you have MORE responsibilities !!& MORE obligations!!.
frustrating, I know.

Ah! and yet more assumptions. I never said it makes men BETTER. That is your own deficiencies speaking. I never even uttered those words. YOU JUST DID.

But having more responsibilities and obligations LOGICALLY gives you the higher ground.

And although A hadith CAN BE Islamic Law, it still doesnt cancel a Quranic verse. And in this case, You just pointed out probably the 3 most important parts of married life. If man is given higher status (as can be seen) in those 3 areas, you have just "nominated" a "leader" in the marriage.

I would like to ask you a few YES or NO questions.

Is a husband in charge of his wife?
Does a woman have (in regular instances, aside from say, the man being clinically insane) have the right to divorce?
Can a man (no matter how light) slap his wife?

These are simple questions, and their answers are Yes, No, and Yes.

A man was given MORE rights. Sorry. But that is how it is. Some argued that it is because a woman's mind is dificient, some argued that its because a woman is more emotional, some would argue that this was back when women were not the bread winners...

But remember, the Quran is "Saleh li kul Zaman wa makan" so none of them are sound.

A woman isnt mentally deficient, isnt always more emotional than men, and are infact bread winners today.

So WHY the imbalance? Thats something you can ask God on the Day of judgement. But please, dont argue a fact you cant argue.

One bit of advice though, you arguing about Islamic doctrine without being an Islamic Scholar, an 3alim deen, kind of shows WHY women were given less rights.

And before you point the finger and say I did the same. Look up. I only pointed out how mistaken you were AFTER you started MISS QUOTING verses.

Proud Emirati said...

amazingsusan, the ones who supported u are either non Emiratis or non muslims so it isn't really surprising. There is no support whatsoever for what u said from the locals and if it was it would be from a small minority.

L'Insolente, I don't know why is the need to emphasize the Arab backwardness? As far as I see it in our culture, a man hitting a female isn't considered a man enough.

L'Insolente said...

Is a husband in charge of his wife? YES. Which does not mean he owns her. He is in charge in as much as he will be accountable for her in front of God on Judgment's day. He will have to answer for how he treated her. "And the best amongst you are those who treat their wives the best. And I am the best amongst you." Wasn't words to that effect uttered by the Prophet, in his last sermon I do believe? Erm.

Does a woman have (in regular instances, aside from say, the man being clinically insane) have the right to divorce? OH YES SHE DOES. While divorce remains the most detested of halal things in God's eyes, if affection is not there anymore, it is sufficient ground for the wife to divorce if she so wants. Stop depriving women of their God-given rights people. You will be asked to account for it.

Can a man (no matter how light) slap his wife? NO. Face is to be avoided at all costs. And any hitting should be with a miswak - goes to show that 'hitting' is a symbol of displeasure of the husband with the wife, not to inflict physical hurt.

Leave your egos aside Arab guys. Don't make halal what God has made haram and don't make haram what God has made halal. You will be made to account for that.

L'Insolente said...

Proud Emirati, I'm glad if that's how it is considered, that a man who hits a woman is not viewed as man enough in your culture.

Believe me when I say it is not with joy that I refer to the backward Arab mentality. It has been a hard awakening for me in the last month.

hemlock said...

ABIT: islam gives women the right to 'khula' - or divorce - where she has to return the mehr, or gifts given at the time of the wedding by her husband. and she needs no reason other than she wants to separate.

as for slapping the wife? i dont think so. im going to have to go with L'Insolente on this one.

amazingsusan said...

With all due respect, proud emirati i don't think you're right about that.

See anonymous @ 10/2009/19:19
Al Ain Rose @ 10/2009/14:47
and more

I also got comments from two young male Saudis on YouTube. When I sent them the link to this blog, they sent me emails which I would be happy to forward to you if you like.

Anyway, the point is not about support. The point is about being able to have a PRODUCTIVE rather than A DESTRUCTIVE conversation and to accept that there are divergent opinions without attacking others.

I never attacked anyone. People might have been offended by what I wrote or said, but I didn't attack anyone as I have been attacked.

And i don't think what I said or wrote in any way justifies the abuse i have received in return. I find the abuse particularly shameful as it is being dished out in the name of Islam, which is meant to be the very embodiment of peace.

You know, you might have looked at this in a totally different light. You might have seen this as an opportunity to build a relationship with a woman who is trying to know and understand more about your people and your culture, you might have welcomed me, as others have, and we could have worked together to build understanding.

Too bad.

Anyway, I think there's not much use in me commenting any further on this, because it doesn't seem to matter what i say. you are absolutely imovable in your view and that is your privilege and right. There's no point in me banging my head against a wall.

As CG has already suggested, sadly it seems to be a big waste of time. Which is unfortunate because if we can't sort out a small thing like this in a conversation between a few individuals, in one city, how can we ever hope to achieve peace on a global level? And that, my friend, is the real tragedy of it all.

So i wish you and your family and friends salaam. If ever you or anyone else in this blog community would like to meet me face to face to talk about this further to see how we might work together to make the world a better place instead of fighting and arguing, I would welcome the opportunity.

You know where to find me, you know what i look like. My email address is on my profile, and my story is on my website. I don't hide behind any pseudonymns, or usernames or anonymous comments.

Take care and enjoy your life :)

A Blessing in Tragedy said...

hemlock said...
ABIT: islam gives women the right to 'khula' - or divorce - where she has to return the mehr, or gifts given at the time of the wedding by her husband. and she needs no reason other than she wants to separate.

"If any woman asks her husband for divorce without some strong reason, the odor of Paradise will be forbidden to her."

Your own link says that. And I pointed to it earlier (being clinically insane, being abusive, as decided by a court, the man being infertile...) these are acceptable reasons for a woman to ask for a divorce.

A woman CANNOT for no reason walk into a court and demand a divorce. a man CAN. He need give NO reason at all.

Is a husband in charge of his wife? YES.

You answered the question. I didnt assume I owned anyone, and once again, those are YOUR demons haunting you as it was a thought YOU came up with, I asked a SIMPLE question, and you answered it.

OH YES SHE DOES. While divorce remains the most detested of halal things in God's eyes, if affection is not there anymore, it is sufficient ground for the wife to divorce if she so wants.

Im sorry, but you are ILL INFORMED. Every court in the UAE has a shaikh whose ONLY job is to answer questions posed by the masses. Go and ask. That reason you gave is NOT sufficient in an Islamic court for a woman to ask for a divorce.

There are reasons, very good ones, that a woman is given the right to ask for a devorce. the "I dont want him anymore" reson isnt sufficient.

Can a man (no matter how light) slap his wife? NO.

Once again, ill informed, I find this part of your earlier response entertaining:

I will not quote ayahs and hadith from memory, but what I do know for sure is, 'hitting' is a symbolic gesture, not an actual one. When the Prophet was asked to explain the \
'hitting' that the Quran referred to, he said it should be with a MISWAK, i.e a symbol to show displeasure of the husband with the wife when all other avenues to speak/ communicate etc. have been pursued without success. AND he also specifically said to avoid the face.

VERY convienient that you cannot cite the ayah or hadith. I could argue that Alcohol is halal and say I forget which Ayah it is.

You my friend, are the farthest thing from a "learned" person when it comes to these issues. And a person not learned enough should NOT interject.

As for that judge. Let me ask you, who do you think, logically, knows more about Islamic law, YOU or a JUDGE?

lol.

The prophet PBUH said that "al tharb al ghair mubrih" was ok. He did not specify the face or any other part of the woman. It was Ummar (as I recal) who told people that the face was not to be touched.

Tharb mean a STRIKE or HIT. And Ghair Mubhir (and Im not a translator by profession) is not inflicting physical harm, or not leaving an indentation, a mark.

So the prophet oked a strike or hit that will not harm the woman physically and that is not so forceful that it will leave a mark/scar...

You sir have a superiority complex if you think that you are more learned than a judge in law. Unless you yourself are a judge.

Please also see this part from the article:

He explained that such incidents led to cases of domestic violence in the Kingdom

He acknowledges that some men take this part of islamic law as a means to justify beating their wives. and he acknowledges it's a problem.

So is HITTING, as prescribed by the Prophet ok? Yes, of course. Beating? no.

But that leaves us with: What is the answer to "Is Islam ok with a man hitting his wife?

The short answer is YES. what types, what situations, and what means must be used 1st (That same Hadith will state something to the effect of 1st you must talk, then shout, then ask for family help, and finally al tharb al ghair mubrih)

But that is all irrelevent to the short question asking for a short answer.

May a man strike his wife in Islam? Yes.

Thats it.

As for Arabs being backwards. I agree. I am not "technically" aArab, and we have many jokes about Arabs being Cattle, stupid, and unable to follow simple instructions even when printed (the qur'an)

That doesnt mean that a judge is wrong, or that you sir, are more learned than a judge.

Anonymous said...

So ABIT hits his sister and fiance using a soft word to describe it to make it seem ok. Explains a lot, what type of person you are.

Anonymous said...

Can a wife hit her husband in the same way if he angers her? If any man put a finger on me........it wont be nice ending.

I pray ABITs sister + fiance fight back. He use a slap or 2 kekekeke.

Anonymous said...

amazingsusan,

why do you keep arguing with people who just want to get offended at the drop of a hat?

live and let live.

A Blessing in Tragedy said...

Anonymous said...
So ABIT hits his sister and fiance using a soft word to describe it to make it seem ok. Explains a lot, what type of person you are.

And assuming you know what kind of person I am makes you exactly what you are, a fool. As only fool make the mistake of assumption. Them and children.

Anonymous said...
Can a wife hit her husband in the same way if he angers her? If any man put a finger on me........it wont be nice ending.

I pray ABITs sister + fiance fight back. He use a slap or 2 kekekeke.

My sister does. And then we have huge play fights... even at our ages siblings will always be siblings I guess. Its something Im glad we never lost.

My fiance... she's smacked me a few times. Mostly because of things I say in public though.

As for me needing a slap or 2? Im sorry you dont agree, and that means I need a slap. next week you'll agree with something i say and I'll be your best friend. Thats you you people work.

Why in the first place should civilized, intelligent people have to hit each other to get their point across?

So with your logic, a civilized people are those who do not use violence to make their points?

So the US, the UK, and all the NATo allies in Iraq and Afghanistan arent even close to being on that civilized list of yours.

Reality: CIVIL HUMAN is an oxymoron. There is NO such thing. We are worse than Animals. THAT is why God kept sending us books and prophets, because he knew we were lower than anything he created. His mercy was to show us the way, and STILL we are unable to be civil.

So your point?

As for you not being ok with being hit no matter what a judge says. That is your OPINION and you have a right to it. FACT however is that your husband CAN strike you and it IS legal.

I suggest you live in reality rather than in your la la land.

Can a wife hit her husband in the same way if he angers her?

A wife can do as she wants. Once again, we are not talking about what married couples can and cant do. We are talking about what is permissible within Islamic Law.

A man has the RIGHT to strike his wife, a wife does NOT.

(Again, how hard, with a miswak or not (which is a stick, not a brush) and when are another question.)

Al-ain Rose said...

One bit of advice though, you arguing about Islamic doctrine without being an Islamic Scholar, an 3alim deen.
...
thanks, but the same advice goes to you Mr.Mofti.
Islam has already a bad reputation, & ppl here add a fuel to the fire & make it even worse by saying things like it's ok for a man to smack his wife??? slapping itself is HARAM in Islam!! and that Saudi Judge, Allah will ask him about this weird and silly Fatwa in the day of judjement, the Judge isn't Alla, he's a human, he might be right or wrong.
just like fatwa "ertha3 Elkabeer" O_o

anyway, kel wa7ed eynam 3ala eljanb elly eyray7ah. you're free to think however you like.
bu-bye:)

Al-ain Rose said...

As for Arabs being backwards. I agree. I am not "technically" aArab, and we have many jokes about Arabs being Cattle, stupid, and unable to follow simple instructions even when printed (the qur'an)
............
I feel like vomiting, really.

the first time I heard this one from an Emarati!
ridiculous. shame on you.
and oh yeah, I'm a person :)

Al-ain Rose said...

There is NO such thing. We are worse than Animals. THAT is why God kept sending us books and prophets, because he knew we were lower than anything he created.
........
again? again Mr.Mofti ??
Allah knew that we are lower than anything he created ?
ولقد كرمنا بني ادم وحملناهم في البر والبحر ورزقناهم من الطيبات وفضلناهم على كثير ممن خلقنا
تفضيلا) سورة الاسراء:70
so again Allah says something & u say something else.
and now who's arguing about Islamic doctrine without being an Islamic Scholar??

A Muslima said...

Is it specifically forbidden anywhere in Quran for a woman to hit her husband?

Hehehehehe.

Anonymous said...

Rose, not all Emaratis are Arabs.
And jokes about Arabs exist as do jokes about 3eyam. Take it easy.

A Blessing in Tragedy said...

Al-ain Rose said...
One bit of advice though, you arguing about Islamic doctrine without being an Islamic Scholar, an 3alim deen.
...
thanks, but the same advice goes to you Mr.Mofti.

Sorry honey, I already stated above that I am also not a mofti BUT was only correcting your ill informed stance.

Al-ain Rose said...
As for Arabs being backwards. I agree. I am not "technically" aArab, and we have many jokes about Arabs being Cattle, stupid, and unable to follow simple instructions even when printed (the qur'an)
............
I feel like vomiting, really.

the first time I heard this one from an Emarati!
ridiculous. shame on you.
and oh yeah, I'm a person :)

LOL. Ask any eimi what an "ushtoor" is and in what context we use it. You'd be surprised. Infact, EVERY person Ive ever talked to is surprised that there even is racism within the UAE (Im talking about citizens) sad truth is racism is rampant, however, much like everything in the UAE, it's well hidden.

ولقد كرمنا بني ادم وحملناهم في البر والبحر ورزقناهم من الطيبات وفضلناهم على كثير ممن خلقنا
تفضيلا) سورة الاسراء:

Not arguing that actually. My comment is in line with this Ayah.

God gave humanity everything. heaven, (which btw, a woman messed up) and even had the angels bow to humanity (Iblis I guess was the only smart one)

And what did humanity do in return? ONE generation into it and Adams own son commits MURDER. ONE GENERATION?

And still, God sends us people, papers... corrections. Every time we basically fucked up he would correct us...

And for what? So we can fuck up some more? I'm sorry dear, but you are not a person, nor am I or any other "human."

We are animals. I've seen better civility in cats.

And once again, look back, up up up... I only started these conversations AFTER you decided that you were Ms. Mufti t correct your ill informed mind.

unJane said...

Except for the comments which are mean-spirited and hateful, I have enjoyed reading this dialogue. I love controversy and debate. I believe it was Barack Obama most recently who said "We can disagree without being disagreeable".

Anonymous said...

We have so many real life problems in the world, yet religious people, whether they be Muslims, or Christians or Jews, or any other believer's of man-made mythological dogma, continue arguing about what this prophet said or what that prophet said 2000 years ago.

WAKE UP PEOPLE! Open your eyes! We have one life to live, enjoy it, be good to your fellow man. Don't let society brainwash you and force you to blind yourselves to the truth that's out there.

We have sent men to the moon, extended our life through medical inovation, created wonderful technologies and as a species have never had access to as much technology and information as we have today;

yet people still believe in men walking on water, and flying to the moon, and a little guy with a pitchfork that's going to burn you forever if you're bad......

if it wasn't so sad it would be funny.......

Half of you who are religious don't even question what you've been told, you simply follow it like blind sheep. (Don't tell me otherwise, I've met many religious people who know less than I do about the religion which they are ready to kill for)

It makes me want to cry for humanity.

If there is a god (which I highly doubt) he is looking down at us all right now, shaking his head at the stupidity of his creation (man).

hemlock said...

ABIT! i generally refrain from religious debates because we will continue to believe what we choose to. but i looked up a couple of references for you, hope this helps:

on woman's right to divorce/seek 'khula':
Various translations of Al-Quran 2:229:
If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by God, there is no blame on either of them if she give something for her freedom. (Yousaf Ali)
If you fear they will not keep within God's limits, then there is no blame on either of them if she buys him off. Such are God's limits, so do not exceed them; those who exceed God's limits are wrongdoers.(T.J.Irving)

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: A young girl came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and mentioned that her father had married her against her will, so the Prophet (peace be upon him) allowed her to exercise her choice.{Book 11, Number 2091 : Sunan Abu Dawud}

on Beating:Al Quran: If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; and such settlement is best (4:128)

Narrated Mu’awiyah al-Qushayri:I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. {Book 11, Number 2139 : Sunan Abu Dawud}

"The best of you are those who are best to their wives." [Tirmidhî, Sahîh]

there's plenty more, but like Buj said, this post has had MORE than its 15 minutes :D

hemlock said...

P.s. please correct me if i've inadvertently misquoted or misattributed something.

CG said...

Well, Susan appears to take this in a very different way to what was intended, and yet she is surprised when we do the same.

On her blog, she wrote her comments:

"I also posted this entry on the UAE community blog, where I have since come under attack for being, among other things, "an ignorant sensationalist woman."
The comments on the UAE community blog, all of which are either made anonymously or by unidentifiable bloggers, are getting increasingly vicious.

Seems I've touched a raw nerve... "


Yes, Susan, you have touched a raw nerve, and you knew it. Vicious comments? Oh, now that is so sad. Sensationalist? You are.

My avatar? Not in the Holy Kingdom Susan. Nowt to do with this discussion and you know it.

Anonymous said...

hemlock said...
ABIT! i generally refrain from religious debates because we will continue to believe what we choose to.

Thats fine, but then not every personal belief should be attributed (somehow) to Islam.

On beating. Never said it was ok. TO STRIKE, that is NOT mubrih is OK. Beating isnt, and that saudi judge acknowledged this.

Smacking and beating are 2 different things.

If ye (judges) do indeed fear that they would be unable to keep the limits ordained by God,

Exactly. JUDGES. a woman CANT have a divorce for any reason that those prescribed. all a man must do is SAY the words. Fact.

Anonymous said...

Found it. God finding an Ayah in English is like finding... something that is really hard to find!

The Qur'an is very clear on this issue. Almighty Allah says: "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband's absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things." (An-Nisa': 34-35)

Beat them (lightly)

For those who want to believe against God, fine, God knows I have some warped beliefs, but please dont claim that your personal belief is Islamic law.

rosh said...

Al Ain Rose: your thoughts & views are quite refreshing. Please, visit this blog more often. Thanks for the debate. Yours too, Mr ABIT.

Anonymous said...

More thoughtful insight :-

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/05/12/ahmed.saudi.women/index.html

Al-ain Rose said...

And for what? So we can fuck up some more? I'm sorry dear, but you are not a person, nor am I or any other "human."
..............
yeah I'm a hamster, what about you what kind of animals are you? plz let me know! domestic or wild ? I wish you're not cuter than me , don't be a cat plz, I ( as a hamster) hate cats. my enemies.

well,According to the Animal biology course I took at college( which is based on( biological) and (anatomical) observations only), yes we are ( I don't believe in this classification though cuz I think it needs to be modiefied), but the polite term is " a member of the kingdom Animalia". At least use the polite term. >.>
It seems that you watched alot of Mawkly anime, the boy of the jungle who believes that animals are way better than humans and prefered to live in the jungle with amimals.


We are animals
........
*members of the Kingdome animalia(biologiclly).


God gave humanity everything. heaven, (which btw, a woman messed up) and even had the angels bow to humanity (Iblis I guess was the only smart one)
..........
lol, this one cracked me up, saying that Iblis was smart when he refused to obey what Allah asked him to do is a dangerous thing abit, watch out plz what you say.seriously. stop being Failasoof Wayed.talking too much philosophy is not a good thing.

And what did humanity do in return? ONE generation into it and Adams own son commits MURDER. ONE GENERATION?
......
want to add somethimg, that the first murder was cuz of a WOMAN also :D I'm surprized you didn't mention that,u missed it, it supports ur ideas much.:D

LOL. Ask any eimi what an "ushtoor" is and in what context we use it. You'd be surprised. Infact, EVERY person Ive ever talked to is surprised that there even is racism within the UAE (Im talking about citizens) sad truth is racism is rampant, however, much like everything in the UAE, it's well hidden.
............
you know what shocked me? is that not considerng your self an Arab, I know many eyams who consider themselves Arab, and they even get annoyed by not being called so.I consider you an Arab, being Emarati, talking Emarati, dressing Emarati, all these things make you an Arab, an Ushtoor! :)
I hate those barrires between us, we are all reasbonsible for creating them, and talking of the racism, racism exists everywhere, even among Arab themselves, there is racism. I know gals who got married to Eyams, my 1/2 sister's mom is an Eyam, and with the time hopefully these terms will disappear, the problem is not with having differences as Arab & Eyam, but rather with the barriers we have created between us. I hope someday they disappear, at least to prove that we are real Muslims.

Anonymous said...

rosh said...
Al Ain Rose: your thoughts & views are quite refreshing. Please, visit this blog more often. Thanks for the debate. Yours too, Mr ABIT.

Thank you Sir.

Al-ain Rose said...

Rosh,thanks, nice of you.

i* said...

There's no debate here. Just reasonable people knocking sense into self-confessed psychos. UAE Community Blog. What a community.

Anonymous said...

Hello, this woman has the full right to write about her experiences. None of you can speak for her. And the Arab men who are commenting here have NO idea what it is like to be a woman - either a Saudi woman (because everything I read, so many of your women greatly dislike you) or a Western woman. This blog is tiring. Anti-American at every turn, anti-female.

i*maginate said...

anti-american? it's fun to be anti-anything and admit it. but the lady in the post is a naive b*.

ps who is not anti-uae and doesn't admit it?

Rupert Neil Bumfrey said...

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/b00c07b6-434e-11de-b793-00144feabdc0.html

I thought this story may be of interest.

amazingsusan said...

i*maginate:

;) thanks for the compliment. FYI:

http://www.amazingwomenrock.com/food-for-thought/proud-to-be-a-bitch.html

RNB:

Thanks for the interesting link :)

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