02 August, 2007

Dubai and American Empire

I think most of us are aware of the different roles Dubai plays in U.S. empire building (Halliburton just being one example). One of the things I am curious about is if people perceive transformations in Dubai with an increasing American presence there.

The other day I was offered a job in Afghanistan, which I politely refused (though the double salary was a bit tempting). One of the arrangements was that after every two months they would fly one to Dubai for a week of R & R. While the U.S. military is mostly taken to bases in Qatar for their R & R from Iraq, the 100s of thousands of contractors seem to prefer Dubai. And, as they are all male, we can imagine what many of them are doing. Bangkok, Seoul, and Okinawa being classic examples of how U.S. military transforms economic opportunities for young women. Of course, the same is true for U.S. military cities, such as Fayetteville, North Carolina, near where I currently live. There is a fascinating book on Fayetteville called Homefront: A Military City and the American Twentieth Century.

When I was in Dubai several long-time residents pointed out how it was when the Russians started coming that the "quality" of the place changed and the presence of prostitution and other "questionable activities" moved from the back door to the front. Does one see or sense any qualitative transformation in Dubai with the increased presence of American empire builders? Or are they just absorbed into the already existent structures of sleaze?

79 comments:

Anonymous said...

I'm no great fan of what the US is doing in the world, but what's up with the assumptions and insinuations in this piece.

"Does one see or sense any qualitative transformation in Dubai with the increased presence of American empire builders? Or are they just absorbed into the already existent structures of sleaze?"

What's with "empire builders"? "Existent structures of sleaze"?

Okay, let's debate these issues, but let's do it from some sense of impartiality, not with this heavily slanted and biased opinion.

Ibn Battuta said...

Bias? the extent and litteral presence of prostitution in Dubai is hardly a secret and not much of a bias. Increasingly Dubai is a destination for "sex tourism" - I would label that, though somewhat sarcastically, as 'structures of sleaze'. If you don't think prostitution is sleazy, well....

As for American empire, that isn't what is going on? what would you call it? making the world safe for democracy? white-man's burden? neo-liberalism at it's finest?

while I do have my orientations, which are pretty clear ("moonbat" or not), do leave a little scope for sarcasism....

SevenSummits said...

Ibn Battuta,
Thanks for the link to your blog and if you don’t mind I will pass it on to some Islamic scholars that I work with for further discussion. “Anthropologist by accident” - :- ), now how did I already figure this? We will certainly clash!! LOL :- )))))

Just a short answer to your question:
Personally I did not feel the US presence in Dubai, not at all. (miniscule in AD) (while Kuwait feels like a base, to say the least) The already existent “structures of sleaze” are so obvious that I do not believe that it can be topped by anything any more. After traveling all over the world and obviously being from an extremely open minded society, I was still shocked at the perversion that I witnessed over there. Wow – I will go into further details later tonight or tomorrow. For instance, you are absolutely correct about the phenomenon of "sex tourism" – as I already described it as the red light district of the GCC, but what is even worse is the fact that it is now also known as paradise for elderly women, that take a vacation for having sexual activities. While they used to go to places like Jamaica, Brazil, Egypt, Gambia, Senegal, they now found the opportunity to get it for free from young and obviously extremely desperate Emiratis. I am certainly not prude, but when it comes to a 19 year old boy trying to pick up a woman that could be almost his grandmother “in public”, I am really sorry to be absolutely disgusted and it does not take a scientist to see that there is something extremely wrong with the prevalent social system.

@ Anon
Please give your self a nickname, so that we actually have a proper debate and address you correctly, if necessary. Certainly let's do this with some sense of impartiality and not heavily slanted. :- ) However this topic might be painful for those, who prefer to ignore all the socio-cultural trends, that will eventually lead to social instability. (and so much more, for instance the spread of HIV)

Cheers from a freezing place - brrrr

nick said...

Dubai is an open city. Everybody is welcome.

Even you, Ibn.

SevenSummits said...

Oh Nick,
and I was hoping that you were still busy with ROFL. ;-)
I will have a coffee with you any time mate and I will certainly pay :-) Now let's talk about s.. and keep it "conflict free" - how about it?

Stained said...

I disagree about the movement from the back door to the front. Its still very much on the back door as the news, government seem to be ignoring this major issue recently.

But lets talk about a few years back [maybe around 2004]. I have witnessed several crack downs on prostitutes in an area I used to go play football. Many of them were arrested and nothing was said in the paper. Not a peep, nothing.

So they haven't turned a blind eye to it & have surely clean the dirt off the streets in one area that is no more called a red light area.

About 19year emiratis, well it does not apply to all. Just cause a part of that age group of locals do it, does not mean everyone does it. So it comes down to one basic thing that I believe is the issue though many of you might not agree so I will leave it for later.

There is no existing structure of sleaze, not even now unless you count the acceptance of bar dancers/performers. This Dirt is still very much behind the curtain or on the back door as you said even though everyone knows it exists. Quality transformation, that is the most pathetic way to describe something like this. Who cares if the Russians are here, its still dirt on our street that needs to be washed away....

Anonymous said...

I know a few civilian contractors who work in Iraq and Afghanistan. Every time they set foot in Dubai, their first stop, (in the evening), is [Insert the name of a bar with hookers here]

Pearl of Dubai said...

Hmmm...is it the American Empire builders who sustain sleaze in Dubai (ie. prostitutes) or the various Saudis and other "practicing" Muslims who retreat there for some sleaze of their own? Given my experience, I would bet my money on the later. Regardless, I think the later is a more interesting topic of inquiry as Dubai's role to me is much more about serving that demographic than it is Americans.

Ibn Battuta said...

Stained, while i'm generally sympathetic to your comments, i think you are wearing blinders if you actually believe prostitution in Dubai is a back-door phenomenon. Every hotel, including the Burj al Arabi, is essentially a brothel and clubs like Cyclone and many others make prostitution very much an open practice. Does it mean Dubai itself is a sleazy city, no not at all; is Dubai the only city that has such a sex industry, certainly not - but how it is practiced there is different than a lot of cities, it has its own "structure(s)" compared to Bangkok or Amsterdam, or the small town I live in.

What I find intriguing with Dubai's sex industry is that it actually has multiple "structures" differentiated by class and nationality. SS's insight into female sex tourism is new that i wasn't aware of before. I know in Egypt it is quite prevalent.

Thus, Pearl's comment on Dubai catering to Arab/GCC clientale is very true, but the multiplicities and structuring of differences I personally find more interesting.

I didn't feel the American presence there particularly strong, but am curious if that's changing at all and how that is being felt. My assumption of course is that it would be felt most clearly in the "sleazy" side of town, but do acknowledge that american tentacles reach into a variety of social sectors.

Stained said...

I meant by the back door in terms of the press, government officials who do not openly accept the problem.

I know prostitution is an activity that is very much present in dubai. Something everyone knows, but no high official is ready to accept it on paper which makes it a back door activity Officially.

Prostitution plagues every hotel or hotel like apartment building in this city. Every nightclub/bar is a foreplay ground for such activity. I know that & I know it happens very much in the open.

Wasn't it a prostitution in Dubai video that was the reason for youtube being blocked here, or was it some other scandal that was raised on the net by the video. I remember seeing a part of it.

Prostitution is a bigger issue than orkut, but you won't see it in Gulf News. Thats how tight lipped they are about such an open fact.

So I am not wearing blinds or something, I'm just saying the press & the government are....hope I cleared that out

Ibn Battuta said...

Stained, sorry for the misreading of your comment. I'm curious, from your perspective, why do you think the government and media are ignoring the issue? why do they seem to turn a blind-eye to the sex industry, including a lot of highly illegal activities like human trafficing?

Kyle said...

why do they seem to turn a blind-eye to the sex industry, including a lot of highly illegal activities like human trafficing?

Because of vested interests. Because it generates hard cash. Anything that doesn't goes on the back burner.

Seabee said...

Ibn, they're actually cracking down on many things, including human trafficking.

Prostitution I guess is so important in reaching the required tourism numbers that a blind eye is turned.

SevenSummits said...

Seabee,
Please do not be so incredibly naïve and believe this governmental/media propaganda. They are doing absolutely nothing about human trafficking – zip, nill, zero, nada, to quote NICK “=0” - it is all cosmetic to satisfy some international demands (for economic purposes) and has absolutely no substance whatsoever. A good example would be the completely fake HR agency – wow, I am developing a hot temper here and better get back to my work! ;-) More later …. Btw, where on earth is Nick on this one?

Ibn B.,
Thanks so much for bringing that one up! :- ) I was going to elaborate on the human trafficking issue and the atrocious crimes (especially against women/children) related to this issue. Maybe better not, otherwise this blog will be banned instantly - grrr!

localexpat said...

The only aspect of the inflow of Americans into this part of the world that I have noticed is the you notice a lot more marines in shopping malls like MOE.

They might contribute to the sleaze business as consumers but nothing significant that I have noticed..

Ibn Battuta said...

Kyle, "hard cash" is certainly the assumption I myself also have about why the powers-that-be in Dubai turn a blind eye to prostitution and trafficing, but one has to wonder if it is that simple.... At one level, the high visionairies are constructing Dubai as a global destination and as a, in theory, Muslim modern city. Yet the extent to which prostitution opperates in Dubai is counter to the various images. As well, there are other ways to make money and attract tourists, why prostitution? It's going to exist no matter what, as it does in every city in the world, but why allow it to be one of the defining "attractions" of Dubai? Just look at Sharjah....

And who gains from it? are the visionaries directly involved? do they get pay-offs? who is earning the "hard cash"?

in the sex industry there are generally three players - clients, providers, and different representatives of the state (legislation, courts, police, health workers, etc.). Clients are usually the easiest to figure out. Providers represent a diversity of forces and choices that drive them into such work (economic, forced/trafficing, personal, etc.). But the state, that is always a tricky one to figure out, particularly in Dubai where image and reality seem to be so contradictory.

Joy be upon us all said...

Hallo together,

an interesting topic showing an alternative aspect of some Muslim places as known in western countries usually. Though the discussed issue in far from being comforting.

What about “sleaze”. In my opinion first the majority of humble girls suffers most from the job they mostly are forced to do by economical or family reasons. They fall ill, are exploited economically by the pimps, owner of hotels, apartments, flophouses, physicians, drug-dealers and even bigot police officers etc. Well we have to face a double-slease, one on the street and behind the backdoors and the other one socially regarding the girls who have no social protection and mostly no fair earnings coz of girl inflation.

Last but not least: According to Wikipedia:

The UAE population has an unnatural sex distribution consisting of more than twice the number of males than females. The 15-65 age group has a male(s)/female sex ratio of 2.743. UAE's gender imbalance is the highest among any nation in the world followed by Qatar, Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, and Saudi Arabia - all of which together comprise the Gulf Cooperation Council.

That like a super booster for prostitution and this is added by the queue of american soldiers, single living expats and rambling business men who like to forget their spouses for some dirty hours of special pleasure.


Hallo Sevensummit,
do you have a Website to visit? Tell me once in another comment. I’m pleased to meet you here. Du fällst mit guten Kommentaren auf.

Ciau Ciau

Anonymous said...

so you are telling me that Dubai has become has become one big brothel for the American army?

SevenSummits said...

Those statistics actually show an obvious gender imbalance, but you will need to take a closer look at the figures. First of all the UAE are made up of an approximate 85% (depending on source) of foreigners and unofficial statistics show an even higher percentage (they are counting illegal workers, business visitors who are not resident in the UAE, etc.) The largest segment constitutes of expatriate Asians, followed by expatriate Arabs and most of them do not have the luxury of to bring their families along. While the UAE nationals benefit enormously from this low-cost expat labor, those foreigners are not the ones consuming the “structures of sleaze” in Dubai. Simply do to the fact that they are just too poor! The tiny rest often has the chance to bring their loved ones along or are made up of businessmen/other needed experts that are usually on an extremely tight schedule in the UAE (which is certainly a frustrating place to get anything done and after long flights to actually get to this glittering façade, the average individual enjoys the deserved rest after a busy day) So if we will just overlook this tiny number of oil & gas folks / plus a few other expat dudes that are dropping in from neighboring countries to have a quick s…., I fully concur with PEARL OF DUBAI [Love your sarcasm PEARL OF DUBAI :- )], that it is especially the GCC “national” fellows that we should take a closer look at. (Plus a few other Arabs that are affluent enough to afford those not exactly cheap – compared to other places – working ladies) When it comes to tourism in correlation with the sex industry in Dubai, this again can mainly be connected to the tourism from other GCC countries.

The real tricky questions will circulate around IBN’s last comment and the obvious fact that there is just so much pretence in Dubai (or image and reality seem to be so contradictory) Certainly the government is behind this and it seems to be a working method to keep everyone busy enough with the pleasures of life, to avoid any critical questioning of society. Probably part of the social welfare scheme :- )

As STAINED has correctly pointed out to us, these activities are a contraction to the alleged “Islamic culture” and sooner or later will sadly lead to social instability within the national minority. Only why is it so strong in this particular country?

Well, it is not only prostitution that is not only the oldest trade and obviously exists everywhere (even in Saudi Arabia), it is the BEHAVIOR OF THE GENERAL MALE “NATIONAL” COMMUNITY. (I do not know what local women in this country do or “do not”?!, so I will just focus on males!)

Generally there seems to be an – let’s just call it anti–social sexual hyperactivity and there is just so much visible decadence all over Dubai that it is just unreal. You can innocently sip a coffee in the afternoon in a shopping mall and absent mindedly response to a noise making mobile, while without even knowing what is going on staring at the most disgusting XXX rated porno clip on your phone – the latest victim of this was my 67 year old mum. (She is just happy every time her phone makes some noise) PS: the government watchdogs are just sitting in these locations and usually do absolutely nothing! (This will never happen to you in the States or in Germany, unless you are a schoolchild having the wrong company)
Everywhere you go, you will see “nationals” trying to pick up women from all shades and colors, however usually these are still in their 20ties – fine, let us call it adolescent behavior. How about those in their 40ties, with already adult children and who are definitely married? Same difference – only more subtle approach. While they are complaining about the negative influence of MTV on their children, they got the most obscene pics of their “lady friends” on their phones and they actually show it to you, once they feel comfortable enough.
These are normal middle class people and than of course we have the elites.
I still remember a Saudi friend of mine responding with grin to my innocent question: “Is any of these nice chicks your girlfriend?” No, they are all prostitutes – I was simply shocked! (and they were all really nice ladies from UK, Sweden, Holland, etc.) We are from a free and liberal society and of course we have our red light districts and you can buy a porno magazine / or film in almost any shop, but as an average citizen you hardly get into contact with the type of decadence that is omnipresent in Dubai.

If you want a national to come to a meeting, that certainly he will not attend unless there is some top down order to do so, put a Western female on the phone and he will come with a cheerful smile – (new form of participatory action, don’t dare to copy my approach – it is patented!)

Even worse – and that is even more scary - is that those that are pretending to be so conservative and moral in front of the society (for instance in the media, to students, etc.) are often just simply normal human beings with all their dirty doings and instead of admitting this in public to end some of those false assumptions about the feasibility of some cultural traditions in a multicultural setting, they pretend and pretend and pretend….

The question remains: WHY?
Islam has obvious solutions for males, who seem to have an increased sexual demand, so since we are not talking about fellows that cannot afford a second, third, fourth wife – what is the problem? Besides, I thought that lying is not permissible in Islam as well – what happened?

Personally – and I am just guessing (IBN is the specialist here) – it has something to do with the imposition of foreign values on this completely closed society. No, I am not blaming the West, because the government or the UAE society could have stopped this, if only they would have wanted to! (Examples are Saudi, Kuwait, Iran, etc. – whatever happens is not public and they will put a “if you don’t like it, don’t come” sign up)

So suddenly UAE nationals see lots of uncovered women, smiling and cheerful, content with themselves and their bodies = “sexy”, maybe humorous, maybe intelligent and suddenly they discover that they have something at home they most likely did not even choose. Obviously this must result in disaster, because even if they are religious, they have dreams and needs, just like any other human being and as evidence clearly shows give in sooner or later to some new approach to life. This does not mean that they will start drinking alcohol or frequent Cyclone, but maybe they will just simply have a girlfriend. Do I blame them – definitely not! But I find this extremely strange – honestly. Somehow they appear to me as a “society that is lost”, caught between cultural tradition and the desperate wish for freedom. (e.g. the freedom to choose a partner) They do not seem to be able to handle all those fast changes that are happening in Dubai - starting from topless women, to simply working with foreign females – increased prostitution seems to be the obvious answer. What do you guys think?

Joy,
Thanks for the compliment in German and I will drop a note in your “mailbox” in the next days :-)

Coverage on Dubai Prostitution:
http://grapeshisha.blogspot.com/2006/11/dubai-prostitution.html

Lirun said...

prostitution and organised crime rocketed when russians migrated to israel.. we're still fighting a trade in women thats comes across the egyptian border..

the same can be said for sydney australia where the russian organised crime moved from the deep western (poorer) suburbs to the rich lavish eastern suburbs with mafiosos' children attended pricey day schools..

it seems however to be a generational influx.. ie the younger generation of offspring is much more assimilated and disinterested in crime and it seems also like reflux from the cold war..

now that russia has one the energy lottery of the century - i hope their new found wealth goes to some urgently needed social renovation and they can play a more productive role in world politics and better use their fantastic human resources..

i think the US is also heading towards reformation and in the process we are likely to see a lot of cultural toxins flung around the world while it straightens itself out of its rut..

al-republican said...

My 2 cents on prostitution in Dubai:

I have been in Dubai all my life (barring my 6 years in the US) and my only experience with prostitution has been in the early 90's when Russian women were seen standing outside in our area in Deira. I don't see that anymore and I thank God for that.

I think a lot of this has to do with hanging out in the wrong places. I have never been to Cyclone and I wouldn't go there even if my life depended on it. I have seen from time to time the crazy scenes of drunk white men carrying blonde women on their backs acting like animals in a Muslim country. I was 18 and it depressed me even then. From time to time, I see some Arabs and Desis in such ecstatic states.

It's sad. I saw a few things in the last few weeks and I just feel I could leave. Even though I am not a strong Muslim, it hurts to see how we as Muslims are joyfully accepting all this corruption in the name of progress. We are so happy in this little sexual pleasures that we forget there is a full-scale war going on not too far away from us. Why are we so insensitive?? How can Muslims party, booze and drink and be so detached from the sufferings of their own??

And then it gets even more sickening when these delusional people get "sober" and trash decent people for being "backward". Inna lillahi wa inna ilayhee raji'oon.

Ibn Batuta, I am seeing a lot of Americans these days in Lamcy, MOE, City Center etc. I don't want to sound pessimistic, but I have a feeling East India Co. is waiting to happen all over again.

al-republican said...

Ibn Batuta-

I also read your entry on a book you read by Asra Nomani. I noted how it talks of the Umm Waraqa hadith on prayers.

It is pretty unfortunate that Muslims today have access to books such as those of Asra Nomani, but have absolutely no access to the "other side". This other side happens to be the classical stance of the ulama on such issues. Therefore, the net effect is that Muslims (especially those living in the West) have no choice, but to believe whatever they read as that is the only place where they are getting any "proof" from.

I have a shaykh who has written an article in English (praise be to the Lord :P) about this topic when it was fresh (the Dr. Amina Wadud incident). The article spans 8 pages on MS Word and is titled "Pretensions of Postmodernism".

The author is no ordinary man, but considered the highest authority in the Shafi'i madhdhab in South Africa. He is an `alim and a muhaddith of extra-ordinary talent!

I sincerely recommend you to read this article (and anyone else who is interested). I would need to have your e-mail address for this (and of others who are interested). I hope you can read Arabic as there are some exceprts from the Qur'an and hadith in Arabic.

Please do let me know if you or anyone else is interested.

Al Mulhama, The Inspired said...

ooooh exciting! (forgive the pun!)

actually it's true that the catering of such not so nocturnal needs is mostly for Arabs.. But, the ones for western expats are sooooo exclusive you wouldn't know about it unless you were so ...

Now I am curious about a place on the back side of sheikh Zayed road, a couple of blocks from the Fairmont it's called The Loft (apparently it's a sports & entertainment club) and I have rarely seen anyone not western expat enter there.

I have been meaning to go and enquire, perhaps it might be an interesting place to pass the time, but being so obviously Arab and female, the thought is quite daunting!

ninjacamel said...

This flesh market caters for working males and holiday makers with money to spare, irrespective of age, race, culture, national origin and religious affiliation. Once seen in perspective, it’s probably as inevitable as traffic jams. And though it still lags behind the larger and cheaper markets of South-East Asia, for many customers this has the advantage of convenience and more “choices”. Sleaze or not, it’s here to stay.

Paraglider said...

Maybe you should have taken the job in Afghanistan.

secretdubai said...

Somehow they appear to me as a “society that is lost”, caught between cultural tradition and the desperate wish for freedom.

I think this is very sad, and very accurate.

My opinion is that the modern Arab world has really reached a stage now where co-education would be more appropriate than traditional gender-segregated schools.

If young men and young women can grow up in closer proximity, and learn respect for one another as peers, platonic friends and future workplace colleagues, it will dampen the endless reaction of a man to a women as flesh!!! target!!! sexy!!!

Sure there may be some relationships that form, but wouldn't most parents prefer their son to be going to the cinema with a girl of his own age rather than to a hotel with a prostitute?

In my home town the girls with the worst reputations were the ones from the all-girls school. Why? Because they didn't grow up exposed to adolescent males in all their greasy, spotty horrors as we girls at co-educations schools did. And as a result the segregated girls had romanticised ideals of what men were like, and were absolutely desperate to meet them and "greet" them at any opportunity.

So because young people here no longer enter a segregated adult society, they need preparation for this at a younger age. Otherwise how can they be prepared for prostitute and predators? Or expect to cope with someone of the opposite sex working alongside them in their office?

al-republican said...

SD-

Prostitution has to do more with HAWAS (dang, I wish I had an English word for this... LUST?) than with the fact girls and guys are segregated and dont have contact with one another.

It is a FACT that a high percentage of prostitute-goers are MARRIED persons. Prostitution thrives in BOTH segregated as well as co-ed societies.

Sex is an emotion and of the kind that if not administered can make a human being WORSE than an animal. I really wish there was an equivalent word in my mind for the word HAWAS. Because it is HAWAS that makes humans have sex with their own children, animals, parents, and even DEAD CORPSES.

I don't know which thread you brought up the case of your disagreement to the philosophy of the State legislating against sexual intercourse as you are of the view that 2 consenting adults can make their own decisions. But, in my view, that is a very simplistic outlook on the issue.

As I have pointed out to you before, 2 consenting adults does NOT sanction an act legal. For example a 50-year old man having sex with his 20-year old daughter; 2 consenting adults involved in a WRONG act.

Similarly, a man who is married with children having sexual relations outside his marriage with another woman at work. Is this act right? Shouldn't it be punishable? You would only say no if you didn't think that the institution of marriage is FOCAL to the human fabric. Protecting this quintessential branch of our fabric is a matter where Islam and the West disagree.

Cheers.

nick said...

Al-rep,

How very fortunate then that Islam should allow polygamy, and 'one-night marriages' even which allow a good Muslim to whore around 'legally'.

You must count yourself lucky indeed.

al-republican said...

One-night marriages?? Have you been reading "Arabian Nights" again, Nicky?

Just in case you didn't know, "Arabian Nights" is ALL fiction. :)

Paraglider said...

So much of this is baloney. Anyone who deliberately buys and drives a Land Cruiser (or similar) is doing more harm to the human race than the guy who walks to a bar, has a couple of beers, and goes on to enjoy a night with a consenting adult, to their mutual benefit. Speaking personally, I'm happier with the sounds of occasional bonking in the adjacent hotel room than with the endless noise and stink of people's automotive self indulgence.

ninjacamel said...

I’m all for coeducation as a choice. But coeducation can also backfire. For example, Israel’s attempt to introduce coeducation to the Negev Bedouins resulted in many girls dropping out of schools. Separation of sexes is a strong value in traditional societies. A successful transition from traditionalism to modernity needs to address this issue carefully.

There are many coeducational schools (mostly private), colleges and universities in the Arab and Islamic worlds. These are important experiments that can lead the way; and they'll do that to the extent they'll show tangible advantages over segregated educational institutions (and to the degree socail change makes it possible)

Perhaps the priority should be given to solve core problems such as illiteracy, gender inequality in education (and in every other field) and curricular reform.

Some would argue that female-only schools and colleges actually have better learning environments. Similarly, their graduates don’t seem to have many difficulties of adjustment in mixed work places (if they choose to work there). The experience of local women seems to support that.

It’s hard to prove that coeducation can lessen prostitution. Many countries that have systemic coeducation have rampant prostitution. Coeducation may contribute in the long run to a more realistic perception between males and females; but this too is debatable, as coeducational countries also suffer from sexism, rape, violence and wide spread discrimination against women.

Monogamy and polygamy are different arrangements. neither one is superior to the other. Each responded to human needs with diferent values in different cultures and periods. The same thing applies to long-term or short-tem marriages. The fact is the vast majority of Muslims choose to be in a monogamous marriage with divorce as a normal option.

Stained said...

hmm..co-education is not the answer.....

You don't need to study, go for movies with the girls of the same age to not see them as flesh for sex or whatever.

Its more about respecting a women. Respect is something that does not sprout out in a mans life just like that. Its needs to be planted early in life & nourished periodically. This nourishment is quite necessary at the age of 12-16yrs. Not talking about Sex-education, but just a certain reminder that the boy is soon to turn into a man & his job is to protect the weak [i.e children & women] & to take care of the old.

Now this sense of respect in a man cannot be placed by a maid[usually female] taking care of the kids while the mother is out socialising, shopping, at the parlour...etc. A maid in the end is a servent treated like dirt by the mother & the child. Even if they try to teach the kids anything, they have a high chance of getting fired/replaced.

So they keep there mouth shut, while the kids grow up treating those maid/s like dirt. Apart from a maid, they might have sisters, who in the end are sisters & are seen in a different light.
So in the end, there only major experience with the opposite sex is a maid[treated like dirt], so how can these kids grow up to respect women in general. Not possible.

So in my opinion, the best way to fix this problem is to somehow make the mothers spend more time with their kids, teaching them the various aspects of life like they used to do. Not co-education, not sex-education.

Now I'm not against co-education, it should be there, but optional. Sex-education also should be there but to a certain controlled limit.

I hope what I said made sense.... :|

secretdubai said...

In a western country, even when boys and girls go to single sex schools, at home boys will see their female cousins, their sisters' friends, the daughters of their parents' friends, all these things. They may go to youth groups or even church groups where they get to meet the opposite sex.

In a country with extensive social segregation this is not the case in many families. (Sure there are some execeptions).

And when I hear of young local men, even in their teens, hanging out with prostitutes in situations where young expat men would be hanging out with young expat women, I think that is a problem. I think that is sad, and I don't think that it is a way to build respect with women.

Nor do I think the insitutution of marriage is so "focal" to "human fabric" that it needs legal punishment for those that do not wish to comply or follow a heterosexually married lifestyle.

Sure - no one can deny that from statistics, children in married homes generally have better physical and mental wellbeing. Nor would I dispute statistics that show that married men enjoy better health than divorced or single men (interestingly the same is not true for married women).

But it still should not be forced legally. In the west adultery is not punished by law, and sex before marriage is not punishable by law, and has it brought an end to the institution of marriage? No. Perhaps there are less marriage, perhaps there are more divorced. Have we seen utter social collapse? No.

Broccoli is excellent for health and cream cakes are not. Should the government be allowed to force every single citizen to never eat cream cakes and only eat broccoli? No. Plenty of people choose broccoli for whatever reasons. Plenty of people choose marriage, fidelity, celibacy, whatever. If the government wants to try and encourage or promote broccoli/marriage, then fine. Whatever. But force it? Legislate it? No.

We don't expect our governments to treat us like small children in a nursery by forcing and controlling our behaviour.

i*maginate said...

author of the post, "you" means "you readers", not "you"

"When I was in Dubai several long-time residents pointed out how it was when the Russians started coming that the "quality" of the place changed"

You mean when there was a time tatooes were clown-like, see-through clothes were prostitution and tongue-piercings were homosexual?

I was there at the time.

Times have changed, and $ has rolled into mouths.

$ makes the world go round, into mouths as foul as yours & mine.

Peace out.

SevenSummits said...

Both the notions that boys, that have witnessed the disrespectful treatment of a nanny and those who have been segregated though culture from females in general (in school, university, etc.) will most likely end up having a distorted attitude towards women / sex, definitely have some truth in them. However I doubt, what STAINED suggested, will be the answer. Since GCC national women are more likely to socialize their children with outdated cultural traditions (such as “arranged service” – sorry, but this is the only terminology that I find appropriate in this millennium), this will not solve the problem of the “structures of sleaze”. [STAINED, if you want to end up as a senior citizen one day, never try to tell a huge majority of women on this earth that they are weak ;-) – you will not survive to tell us about it]

Ninjacamel, you are correct about the fact that it would be hard to prove that coeducation can lessen prostitution, but it could certainly influence the approach that the majority of “nationals” have towards women. “… the endless reaction of a man to a women as flesh!!! target!!! sexy!!! [SD you could also replace “flesh” by “… are you married?” – we are already placing bets on this question every time an Emirati is left alone with a female and are seldom disappointed :- ) Will marriage make a difference to them???] Actually it must somehow correlate with the liberal, pro Western atmosphere in the UAE, because the majority of Saudi males feel just totally threatened, whenever confronted with a female colleague. (not those that have seriously interacted with the West, of course)
“The experience of local women seems to support that.” ???? Certainly that would not hold true, if we were hypothetically talking about a “real work environment”, in the “real world” – rough, rude, competitive, etc. – if a woman cannot fight back and deal with the guys in the team on their terms, she is history. [Hope you did not find this comment rude, but sadly that is just a fact of life and women expecting a “special girly treatment” in a competitive working environment will be the victims of discrimination]

Al-Republican,
Nicky is correct (if you remove the special rude component) ;-)
Short term marriages (Shiites], Secret marriages [Missyar – Saudi Arabia only], “Intermediate Marriages” [Yemen – for young couples that cannot afford to move together and will remain living in their parents houses], but to take out the Islamic factor smart Christian males in Africa have come up with something super practical called the “African Church” which allows polygamy [views are controversial on this one of course :- )]

I do not even want to ask, how you managed to get from something simple as having sex (with a girlfriend, as fornication/adultery or within the organized sex industry) to something perverted and totally abnormal (as Pedophilia, etc.) MMMMmmmhh ??????


Prostitution – existing everywhere and in every society – is certainly the last option most dudes would go for. Especially in Dubai, it is not that difficult (much easier than in Europe) for an average male to go out and find a consenting adult to have some mutual fun. No big deal, but to actually go out and pay for it? That is something quite different and not exactly satisfactory to most men (come on isn’t it better to have a women dying to be with you than one that is asking for your VISA/Matercard????) Actually a somewhat funny or maybe even sad story an Emirati in his 40ties once told me. Somewhat being a conservative/religious guy, the urge to get to “know the unknown” overcame him and while in the States, he ordered an Escort to his hotel room. When the selected blonde appeared, he got really disappointed and told me that this was nothing he expected: To use his words “too mechanical” Somehow, I am still wondering what exactly did he expect from a pro –maybe a romantic love letter or something in this direction????? Of course she was getting to point instantly, “time is money” and she would have been a bad business women, if she wasted her time indulging in a sweet conversation. [I am lucky, same fellow is apparently too conservative to read blogs :P – see the irony!]

Finally “2 consenting adults can make their own decisions” (from SD) is a simple question of human rights – no government that is a signatory to the Convention has the right to interfere in what “two consenting adults do in their privacy”.

PARAGLIDER, Al Gore would love you for this one :- ) – totally agree with you!!!!

PS: Also just refused a consultancy in Afghanistan and Iraq – why do you want to send us there? (in the absence of sex ....?)

SevenSummits said...

SD,
“Broccoli is excellent for health and cream cakes are not”
ROFL :- ) – absolutely smashing, but wait - depends on what you will do with the cream cake?

I need to be provocative: Wasn’t the “institution of marriage” invented when people had an average life expectancy of about 34? Well now, especially in the States, people marry several times and guys still end up broke in most of the cases.

i*maginate said...

hello SS, how are you?

Since you have such interesting points to make, would you care to make them a trifle shorter?

Anonymous said...

informative documentary about prostitution in Dubai...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3fC7KDY4sqE

Kyle said...

Link doesn't Link.

Anonymous said...

This clip's been around for a while.

secretdubai said...

Hope you did not find this comment rude, but sadly that is just a fact of life and women expecting a “special girly treatment” in a competitive working environment will be the victims of discrimination

No - it's sadly true. But then of course there is a type of woman who will trade on just this: they will use sex appeal and flirtation to get "special girly treatment" and it works. It doesn't work for fat women or old women or plain women, but anyone who has worked in any company will have seen a cunning bimbo get male colleagues to run around for her. Mind you I have seen men do the same, by feigning affection/flirtation towards women in the workplace.

roger r said...

"Because it is HAWAS that makes humans have sex with their own children, animals, parents, and even DEAD CORPSES..."

Good heavens! Where on earth does this happen (especially items 2 and 4)?

Anonymous said...

roger,

In Pakistan, where Al-rep is from.

al-republican said...

Roger:

Hehe, number 2 happens mostly in the midwest belt of the US and mostly agricultural societies (this includes muslim as well as non-muslim societies).

Number 4, God help us, but Wallah such things were reported (most recently) during the Soviets invasion of Afghanistan and during various points in history.

Sevensummits:

Mut'ah (shi'i practice of temporary marriage) is not Islamic, PERIOD. It is a pre-Islamic practice that was made HARAM by Rasulullah (SAW). If some people practice this as individuals and groups then it is COMPLETELY of their own volition. It has nothing to do with Islam. You might be surprized but Mut'ah was not the only form of marriage existing when Islam came around. there were in total 11 ways to contract marriage in Arabia at the time and all except 3 were banned by Islam.

Also, Nikah misyar is not even REMOTELY close to "temporary marriage". Misyar is just a name given to a marriage where the man is not financially responsible for the woman's well-being. No more, no less. This sort of marriage contract is convenient to persons who don't have financial means to get married. To re-iterate, misyar is marriage which is just like normal marriage with just the exception wherein the woman waives the right of the man to be financially responsible to her (due to his financial incapacity).

SD:

Yes, marriage is not a defunct institution in the West, but it is eroding FAST. It is only a matter of time when women and men will start thinking one day along those lines. These days in the West it seems homosexuals are resurrecting the institution of marriage! Need I say more? :P

Anonymous said...

anon..please do not generalize and thus commit same mistake that some ppl commit about West and non muslims!

Joy be upon us all said...

Hallo together,

Secret Dubai suggests co-education as improvement to the natural needs of young wo/men in coz of long during educations and career-entries nowadays and Al-Rep made some critical notes, being in doubt if co-ed would be efficient to bring up young adults turned out really nicely.

Well, in my opinion the parents at home and the teachers in school should be aware of that young men are shown some very important personality traits as there are “self-restraint”, the magic of “sublimation” and the perception of the natural fact that women have their very own female sexuality to be satisfied by men according to what women like.

I believe that an education according to these guidelines would be very helpful in general.

Joy

Luke said...

I am just pissed at the fact that I can't look at pictures of my friends camping holiday in wales on flickr, yet 200 yards from where I live are around 50 prostitutes pushing the wares onto sex starved males at 3am every morning.

One more month to go and then it's back to Europe for me, god bless her.

Anonymous said...

SS
That is something quite different and not exactly satisfactory to most men (come on isn’t it better to have a women dying to be with you than one that is asking for your VISA/Matercard????)

In the present age, where can you find a woman who is dying to be with you? And if you are short on cash... You'll have to be a stud to get women interested in you and then they won't be of your choice!

al-republican said...

SD:

I forgot to mention something in my previous post, but I was born and brought up in Dubai. I have 5 very good friends since childhood (one of them introduced me to your blog and contributes on your blog too). This may be a personal example, but I can tell you that you can stretch this to almost all groups of individuals.

Amongst my friends, I came from the most conservative family. My other friends also come from orthodox families, but relatively speaking their families are more open than mine. If one were to use your arguments, I should have been the one visiting prostitutes, but praise be to Allah (and I on my own could have never done this) I am the only one in my group who has not (yet :P) taken the services of the sex industry.

Sometimes it makes me sad that these friends of mine are still driking and fucking around whores when we are almost touching 30. Two of them are married and at least one of them is STILL going to whores.

These are all guys who have grown up with girls all around them. We went to co-ed schools, too. But, I can tell you that there really is no correlation between guys going to whores versus co-ed and segregated schools. Zilch.

I will tell you this much: All men who earn and have the chance to bang prostitutes will bang them. We men are really low when it comes to our sexual desires. I can admit that men are more sex-crazy than women ANYDAY!

So, that was my personal experience :P

Stained said...

@ al-rep...

regarding your personal example I'd like to bring up mine. All my friends ranging from age of 20-22 have not had sex with a prostitute & its not because of financial restrictions. We all are well off, earning a pocket money for ourself of 3K+ per month & I'm the only conservative person in the gang [being the only muslim] though I'm not ruling out sex in general as most of us are in a relationship.

We all went to a school where we saw girls of our age for about 10mins [max], thats it [even though some managed more time & sometimes do stuff too].

The main source of socialising with the girls of our age was during family visits/functions.

And Men are more sex-crazy than women might depend on whom your observing. But again in general, I would say this statement holds true.

@ sevensummit....I have always been taught to protect my sisters from people who may harm them. Thats what I meant.

I don't understand what you mean by outdated traditions. A tradition has been handed down for years/decades. It cannot be outdated, just the way these traditions were applied earlier can be.

I'm not saying its a sure problem fixing solution, but I'm certain its a big step to make a change. I myself have seen the difference.

@ SD...the thing about not legalising sex before/without marraige is because in this department, UAE follows the Islamic laws that say its not allowed.

I don't expect our governments to treat us like small children cause I don't need to be controlled or forced.

Some people who think its a restriction can always do what they want & hope to not get caught. Managing that is not that difficult in Dubai in my opinion anyways so it really does not matter.

@ luke...heard of proxy servers, I use it to surf flicker.

@ annon [18:29]....I can give you several examples where a girl is dying to be with a guy. Its something called love, not sure how many of you believe in it though, but I do.

al-republican said...

Stained:

Oh, I think I didn't elaborate myself clearly. I meant people who want to have sex with women and have the money to do so, will do so. I have loads of friends who are single, earning decent money and have still not had sex. Sometimes I think its kinda crazy because we are all reaching 30! Hehe.

You are a young chap, Stained. Take a brotherly advise if you may. I love it how you say you would do anything to protect your sisters from harm. Since you are young, well off, and probably finding yourself in "situations" pretty often, PLEASE keep your hormones in check. In sha Allah, in the long run you will look back at your life and be proud of yourself for not having crossed the line. Think of the girls you have feelings for as a sister of another brother who would go at any lengths to protect her from harm. Yes, I know love is a great thing and it just sweeps one of his/her feet. Nevertheless have patience.

We all will be married someday and will share beautiful lives wih our respective wives so let us share these emotions with this one special person in a legal way, in sha Allah.

And while I say all this to you, I know what it is like being single and I have had my fair share of "situations" hehe. But, keep fearing God and I will do the same too :)

secretdubai said...

These days in the West it seems homosexuals are resurrecting the institution of marriage! Need I say more? :P

You see to me this is a good thing. Two people that love one another plan to have a lifelong, stable, committed relationship.

Platonic bachelor and spinster households, as well as brother-sister households, have been very common in western cultures in decades and centuries past. They didn't rock society. So why should the union two non-platonic people of the same gender?

If a man is born gay, and at some point medical science will probably be able to do orientation tests to show that it is not a "choice", then what is the problem with him living with another man? How does that affect me, or you? If you are a young heterosexual man who likes girls, is the fact that Mr X lives next door with Mr Y - rather than Ms Y - going to make you drop all your marriage plans?

No. I don't know why people are so terrified of homosexuals. It's as irrational as being terrrified of disabled people or black people. Gay people have no agenda to prevent heterosexual people getting married, why would they?

secretdubai said...

And Al-Rep - thank you for your candidness about your upbringing and your friends. I agree that it is really sad that people feel the need to pay for sex.

But there has been prostitution since the dawn of time and there always will be. If men won't stop going to hookers, I hope they at least don't bring back diseases for their wives (though I expect many are too selfish or too stupid to even care).

@ SD...the thing about not legalising sex before/without marraige is because in this department, UAE follows the Islamic laws that say its not allowed.

I don't expect our governments to treat us like small children cause I don't need to be controlled or forced.


Yes but you are being controlled or forced if you don't want to follow Islamic laws. My belief is that religion should a matter of choice not legislation. If you don't want to have sex outside marriage then it doesn't really affect you. But if you do, you should have the freedom to "sin" if you so wish with a consenting adult "sinner".

We'll all answer for our own souls come Judgement day. It's fine to guide one another, but never to force or control.

Iabn Bothamtuta said...

have to admit ive never seen al-republican in such a somber moment before. return back to your terrorist ways my friend. u make better sense only then. where r ur guns go get them. not married at 30???!!! u never will lol.

SevenSummits said...

@ Anon 06 August, 2007 18:29,
This sounds like a negative approach to life?
Finding a woman that will be addicted to you is certainly NOT A QUESTION OF YOUR FINANCIAL ABILITIES!!!!! Every female that does not love you for who you are and is expecting something financially from you (e.g. gifts) in return for her affection is even worse that all those prostitutes in Dubai combined. Such a lousy materialistic character is not worth it for a second. I happen to be familiar with some extremely affluent people from a multitude of countries and they all have one thing in common: Finding the right woman with a beautiful soul, becomes increasingly difficult when you are a multi millionaire! They envy simple citizens like you and I, because they can buy the most beautiful women in the world (and in frustration most of them actually do), but they cannot buy physical and/or emotional “affection”. What a pitiful existence!

Forget about the “stud” issue instantly, because with a single blue pill, almost everyone can be a stud. (and women have figured this one out by now!) How about improving your self-confidence and trying to make her laugh instead. Athletes for example score a lot higher with women, despite their looks – it is all a question of attitude. Following the advice of Joy surely can’t hurt either! Everyone has something special and attractive, including you. The services of a pro will eventually affect your ability to interact with the sweet girl next door and intense frustration will hopefully be only one of the outcomes. (See SDs reminder of various diseases)

@ Al-Rep:
11 ways to dig your own grave???? How many options to solve the problem? ;-)

You are nuts, if you think that any male that has the opportunity and the cash will do it with a pro??????? I certainly know an endless number of guys from around the world that would never ever sleep with a prostitute. Where did you get this idea from?


@ Stained:
Protecting your sis is great ;-) – no complaints.
“Tradition” – as simple as it may sound, can be a highly controversial term, depending if you look at it from a sociological, legal, philosophical, historical point of view. (you would not believe how much literature is out there to discuss modernity, tradition and cultural values – plus the concept national identity. I sincerely hope that nobody will ever make you read any of this stuff – it is pure punishment. ;-) ) Despite that thought, I tried to search for something simple for you to read on this topic, but it seems that any document that touches Max Weber is a real discouraging drag. Actually the process of modernity partly requires change and therefore “outdated” traditions will be substituted by let us say “Updates”. Thank God, because remember that we in Europe used to burn women with red hair and my ancestors used to drink out of human skulls – ahm – maybe “to outdate” these traditions was for the better?

For instance “love” does not require lots of cash (dowry) and a huge wedding party (first step to male exploitation :- ( and if I remember correctly “a date” was a sufficient gift) All these material issues are adapted cultural habits that are also destroying the “institution of marriage”. See AL REPs comment!


Homosexuality:
Yeah, let me join SD in asking, why you guys are just so intolerant when it comes to homosexuality? Of course we are all aware that homosexuality is considered a sinful act in Islam (as well as Christianity!!!!!) and hope that everyone respects that some may feel uncomfortable with the topic. However since several years back, zoologists have discovered that homosexual and bisexual activity is not unknown within the animal kingdom, thus definitely not making it either a Western phenomena or in general a question of choice. Unless some of you will try to argue that God made a mistake in his creation and that he would love a homosexual person less, despite being of excellent character, I would like to plead for a little tolerance here. Besides the facts that SD has already correctly pointed out, I would really remind everyone of the terrible consequences that everyone involved has to endure, if those with gay tendencies are forced into a heterosexual marriage relationship. Nobody will end up happy!

Consenting Adult "Sinners"
In the past decades we have established many new forms of partnerships and family relationships. Two Mummies, two Daddies, single parents, domestic partnerships, patchwork families, etc. and all these constellations will sooner or later substitute the institution of marriage. “Real love” does not require a piece of paper and even in respect to everyone that is truly religious, we all know that reality is quite different from those illusions that we have about life. The majority of married people cheat, some Catholic priests mess around with little boys, some Imams do the same once out of their respective countries and so on. The true value of character is inside the heart and if you are committed to someone, what difference will the personal (and legal) arrangements you made make?

When it comes to two consenting adults having sex in the context of Dubai, the serious question would be about how many tourists / business visitors actually know about these rules? Does any vacation catalogue or website point out to the interested client – sorry you can have a vacation in our place, but without sex? Does Lonely Planet warn anyone about not having sex in Dubai – no. (While they usually warn you about anything even the craziest person would not possibly do, they actually advice people to get the required alcohol in the duty free before getting out of the airport – that is illegal as well, as I learned) Do the airlines hand out a leaflet saying: “No sex in Dubai unless you are legally married?” or make an announcement? Nothing – well if you go to Saudi or Iran, they will let you know the rules of the game in endless repetition. So what type of legislation is this, when it is just applied at will?

Mmmmh - in their 20ties, in their 30ties ….
Well, as I have said, I sadly do not know a single exception of a national male in their 40ties that does not enjoy sexual pleasures of some type, as an alternative to what they have got at home. Makes you wonder, what happened to Islam and the idea of giving “adequate satisfaction”, so that the partner will not be tempted to go out and search for alternatives. Has this, just like being a mother, been exchanged for extended shopping, playing around with mobiles, abusing the maids, gossiping and whatever else in Dubai? However I know some guys from other nationalities (among them other Arabs) that are certainly faithful to their wives.

Stained said...

@ al rep...20 something guys not wanting sex. Thats a far fetched thought for most of our porn crazy generation. I know several guys who would love to have sex with the [in there terms] 'the hottest girl' they can find. They have the money, the cars [with adequate Tints] to pick up prostitutes. But they either choose to remain faithful to there girlfriends [who may/may not have sex with them] or just don't want to do it with a prostitute.

About my hormones, advice taken...though what gave you the idea that I'm single... :P

@ SD…..The effort on the government side to not legalise sex before marriage in my opinion is just another effort to control the burst of modern ideology among there youth in this very young [almost infant] society that exists here. Its just about 25 years old [keeping in mind the expat inflow]. They know that opening the doors to this is going to create a lot of problems, so they choose to not face these problems but just listen to those quiet complains by the people who want it legalised [I’m sure no ones going to storm into the minitry & say that he/she want to have sex before marriage]. And anyway as I said you can always do it hoping not to get caught.

@ sevensummit….that’s what I said. Following the traditions, just not following the old ways of applying them…..

DON”T TALK ABOUT MAX WEBER…I’ve read his work, some of it atleast on society. Damn!!!! He was the most boring person on earth [though what he said did make sense sometimes].. ;)

Love does not need anything is not true. No wait…. Let me put it this way, in love we expect things from the other person…physical, emotional or financial. But in a positive sense of expectation, not dowry or elaborate marriages.

Homosexuality…..it’s a diffcult topic to argue about with me cause I think you all know by now what I think of it, so I’ll just leave it to this that for people like us it’s a sin irrespective of ther notion that it’s a personal choice. The world talks about cleansing the society of these terrorists, well making people take the right path [homosecuality is the wrong path they have drifted to] is like cleansing the society for us. Now I’m not putting terrorists in the same category, but just as an example. A terrorist should be given no mercy [if proven guilty] where as a homosexual should be helped. [I’m soooo going to get busted for this para…. :|]

Adult Sinners
Interesting…but have you thought of this that Dubai [just talking about this city for now] does not want toscare people away but wants people to come & see how open minded the people are here without any rules & regulation [apart from NO DRUGS policy].

Sexual pleasure is not restricted to just physical pleasure in my opinion. Its more about mental fantasy also. No human being is perfect, they will in the end have some restrictions. So no women can satisfy a mans every crazy fantasy cause it’s a fact that these expectations have been given a big boast with pornographic videos/Images. So they go out to prostitutes who will do anything for money [even if it’s the most horrible thing to do]. This will keep happening till Men in general realise that its just not their pleasure that matters, give pleasure to women in general & he’ll get more [in a most basic term] ‘grrrrrrr….’ out of her [compared to a prostitute] as one she’s satisfied, second she’s the person who loves you & you love her. This does not apply when the Man wants to let his toy rip at anything he gets.

Sorry about yet another long comment.... & SD, is there a possibility of keeping the 'Islamic nation' topic on the main page for another week or so.

D said...

I'm not even going to bother arguing with people who think homosexuality is sin because there's no point; they won't change their minds. In any case, you'll have your opinion and others have theirs and we're ALL entitled to it.
I think Voltaire said, "I do not agree with what you say but I will defend to death your right to say it" ... (doesn't happen much though, does it?)
The question I ask is... what if someone came to you ('you' being anyone who thinks homosexuality is sin) and said you need to be "helped" because you belong to a certain religion?
What if they say you need to be "helped" because you're a non-vegetarian?
The list is endless...you may want to help a person for n number of things just because you think it's a sin. Doesn't make it one necessarily from another point of view.
Besides, making a gay/lesbian marrying a heterosexual will ruin that person's life, the heterosexual partner's life and whoever else may be involved. Being gay is not a CHOICE... it's how they are born. It's a biological...genetic issue. So that.

Stained said...

Being from another religion...we muslims are required to invite a non-muslim to Islam if possible though in todays world.

eing non-veg is not a Sin though its torturing oneself in my opinion.... ;)
Can't love without non-veg... :D

Being Gay is not the way they are born...

Stained said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stained said...

^^^^Edit:

I can't imagine living without non-veg....

but in todays world it does not happen that often.

D said...

You're saying that being gay is not the way they're born is because you refuse to LOOK at evidence showing that homosexuality does have certain genetic reasons and environmental factors contribute to said genetic and biological causes.
Look, at the end of it, it doesn't matter what you think about homosexuals... basically, you don't have a right to tell them NOT to be the way they are... no one does.

Stained said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Stained said...

Saying that being gay is the way they are born is questioning Islam basically. So as I said earlier no use argueing with me on this topic cause nothing that is said will change my mind.

And I don't need a right to tell them what to do, the government here is doing enough, i.e its illegal remember...so that

McMenon said...

Morality crisis?

Hemingway once said, "I know only that what is moral is what you feel good after and what is immoral is what you feel bad after."

At least Hemingway was being honest.

It is interesting that some people are trying to claim the moral high ground - on the basis of their faith.

That is pure propaganda.

In most countries, including the US of A - prostitutes are not imported into the country. They are part of the system.

The prostitutes of Dubai are all imported (*I stand to be corrected). Most of them are from extremely poor background - trapped to work as prostitutes by one Mafia or the other.

In the UAE, it is almost impossible to own Hotels, Bars and Clubs without a local sponsor.

Keepers of morality, what morality are you keeping?

If Morality is all about Orkut... then what to say?

al-republican said...

Sevensummits:

I came out ambiguous in my post. I certainly didn't mean that ALL men who had the opportunity to do hookers would do so. I actually meant that all those people who are "motivated" to have sex with prostitutes will do it. Marriage, age, diseases, education etc have nothing to do with this decision of theirs. Like I said, there are plenty people out there who wouldn't want to do a hooker.

SD:

There is no fear of homosexuals. And till Science can prove otherwise, I will stick to my opinion like gum. The fact of the matter is that there is asbolutely NO PROOF of genetics in homosexual behavior. The only medical attestation to homosexuality is that the in homosexual individuals, the sexuality part of the brain is under-developed (but even this is not a proven fact).

Like I told you before, the way genetics works is that it REPLICATES and passes down generations. If we were to assume even for arguments sake that homosexuality is a genetic condition, then the fact is that this genetic condition would cease to exist because homesexuals CANNOT reproduce! Therefore this gene would die its natural death (if there ever was one).

Secondly, please be clear about homosexuals and hermaphrodites. The latter have a GENUINE genetic problem and there is complete tolerance in Islam for them. Due to biological/genetic/hormonal imbalances a person can have the problem of sexual orientation. Islamic societies as such have always tolerated and mingled peacefully with such individuals.

However, homosexuality is COMPLETELY different. A homosexual person is one who is PERFECTLY male/female. No deficiencies or genetic issues at all in this case. These individuals CHOOSE to have partners of the same gender (and sometimes like jumping between men and women), which is a gross abuse of "freedom". How can you explain bisexuality then with your line of reasoning? And didn't you mention on your own blog how women act lesbian to attract attention of men or be accepted amongst their peers? So, clearly this is an issue of choice rather than genetics.

I have said this before and will say it again that pedophilia and beastiality is often supported by its proponents as a genetic issue too. And I guess some day science will prove them correct, too. Just because animals have homosexual tendencies doesn't prove it a fact. And sevensummits if you studied one of the test cases of the study you are quoting, it was a controlled experiment where male goats were left with each other SECLUDED till they became horny and had no option. In most of those cases, the stronger goat subdued the weaker one and FORCED himself on the other.

al-republican said...

Also, there are plentiful examples of animals forcing themselves on humans while they are musking. I remember one such video on America's funniest videos of a donkey trying to force itself on a farmer in the US!

I wonder what you would have to say about that?

Joy be upon us all said...

Hallo Al-Rep

here is a quote for you:

The Muslim Ahmadiyya community of Berlin (http://www.ahmadiyya.de/) has explained on its website at the beginning of this year that human beings turn into homosexual just from eating pork and that pigs are not only homosexual too but sex-manics.
After massive critics by human and animal rights activists they removed the statement from their website but not out of their mind I suppose. But they are excellent when its about dealing with women, showing women not respect (no handshaking e.g.) and etc., I suppose these deficits are caused by eating not enough pork.

Cheers

al-republican said...

Joy be upon us all:

That's pretty weird! How can pork turn people into homosexuals?? Pretty absurd, I would agree with you.

You know what is weirder and the twilight of absurdity?? Ahmadis are NOT Muslims! Their belief system is diameterically opposed to Islam and it is a matter of consensus in the ENTIRE Muslim World that they are non-Muslims.

What the Ahmadis say are their own beliefs and has nothing to do with Islam. I hope this clears the confusion a bit.

Anonymous said...

@ joy be upon us all....

I'm so glad ur eating enough of it so I dont have to eat any.
Thanks, mate, ur saving my life. ur the best!

Joy be upon us all said...

Hallo AL-Rep,

your views are not political correct.
at all. I suppose you to be racist against Ahmadiyya. You have to practice a bit in self-censorship unless you will not be invited in to a talk-show in the EU.

Cheers

Stained said...

@ Joy be upon us all... I agree with al-rep. Ahmaddiya are not muslims. So what they say does not relate to Islam

About being racist, who's being racist. They belong to a different religion. A religion that is not Islam. Get you facts straight.

Joy be upon us all said...

Hallo together,

who knows the unique addy of Islam? If you know it, Dear Stained, you will have tomorrow morning a date with Angela Merkel. She would even cook for you.

Cheers

ninjacamel said...

For those who are interested, the BBC radio had a special program about homopbobia on Monday, including a very interesting interview with a gay imam from South Africa! No kidding! Should be able to find it on their website.

SevenSummits said...

Al-Republican @ 07 August, 2007 17:21,
Now we are on the same page – totally agree.
I did not quote a study about male goats??? Got me confused?
Goats? “Capra aegagrus hircus”? Are you downgrading me??? :P I really, really dislike goats for a number of reasons.

Donkey is getting kinky with farmer in the US?

My options for you ….
A: Donkey needs glasses
B: Farmer looked a lot like a super sexy donkey chick with big boobs [or insert taste]
C: Donkey spent way to much time in Dubai

McMenon,
Great comment and very true indeed!

Stained,
Also great comments and very mature for your age :-) (You could be my son as well, so I am permitted to say this) They tortured you to read Max Weber? Help - there is the need for a petition here. How many coffees did you need?

My apologies that I did not yet get back to your question on “Islamic Nations”, but I am still laughing … allow me to get that “big grin” of my face first. :- )))))))
I will get back on the “adult sinners” issues tomorrow, because I can contribute a first hand experience here. (Unintentionally I have contributed to the "structures of sleaze" as well, unbelievable isn’t it?

samuraisam said...

"And I don't need a right to tell them what to do, the government here is doing enough, i.e its illegal remember...so that"

Yeah. Just like a hell of a lot of other things are illegal; like visiting the cinema if you're under the age of 16, like how prostitution is illegal, like how corruption is illegal, like how slavery has been illegal for ages; I can totally see how sensible your viewpoint is.

Anonymous said...

Al reek
it was a controlled experiment where male goats were left with each other SECLUDED till they became horny and had no option. In most of those cases, the stronger goat subdued the weaker one and FORCED himself on the other.

So this is the reason majority of paki males likes to fuck males? Me, no matter how many years i'll be secluded with the same sex but i'll never get the urge to have sex with the same sex and i'm not homophobic either.

D said...

al-republican said... If we were to assume even for arguments sake that homosexuality is a genetic condition, then the fact is that this genetic condition would cease to exist because homesexuals CANNOT reproduce! Therefore this gene would die its natural death (if there ever was one).

Oh for heavens sake... have you forgotten that for as long as we can remember, homosexuals were literally FORCED to marry members of the opposite sex to appear "normal" and they've even have kids... homosexuals have normal sexual organs you know... they aren't 'out of order' ... and besides, lesbians, for example, can have kids... science is kind to homosexuals that way.

And since when did this post turn into a discussion on homosexuality and Islam and goodness knows what else???

People... we all have different viewpoints and TILL now no one has changed their mind about their own... and half the time these discussions turn into abusive tennis matches... from one side of the court to the other... hmmmm

al-republican said...

Hi d-

Even with the fact that homosexuals are either forced or marry someone of the opposite sex for the purpose of recreation, the "gene" would STILL die a natural death.

If you know how genetic replication works then the "dilution" of this "gay gene" would have happened a LONG time ago to the point of extinction like the dodo bird.

But, there still isn't a thing such as a "gay gene". So this whole debate is purely academic in nature for argument's sake.

Anonymous said...

I want to draw your attention about courts and justice in Pakistan.

Whenever you may have chance to have meeting with a Paki politician, govt officers, army professionals, business man wheter online or personal, you just talk over with them about the JUDGES corruption for justice in Pakistan.
Believe me they will be extra ordinary abased over your talks and will seek the place to run away :) :-

A PAKI CIVTIM OF JUSTICE CORRUPTION IN PAKISTAN

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