12 December, 2006

Pro-Palestine Jews



Why are Jews at the 'Holocaust denial' conference?

Some of them belong to Neturei Karta (Guardians of the City), a group of a few thousand people which views Zionism - the movement to establish a Jewish national home or state in what was Palestine - as a "poison" threatening "true Jews".

A representative, UK-based Rabbi Aharon Cohen, told the conference he prayed "that the underlying cause of strife and bloodshed in the Middle East, namely the state known as Israel, be totally and peacefully dissolved".

In its place, Rabbi Cohen said, should be "a regime fully in accordance with the aspirations of the Palestinians when Arab and Jew will be able to live peacefully together as they did for centuries".

35 comments:

BD said...

Now that's more like it. Israel seems to be a state founded on a misguided religious principle for a people who are mostly secular. It reminds me of the creation of Pakistan. The father of the nation, Jinna, was intent on establishing an ethnic religious state when he himself was non-religious and identified very little with his ethnicity. As usual unscrupulous people use the guise of religion to dupe the gullible believers into supporting agendas which are little more than power grabs.

DG said...

Thank you Secret Dubai for highlighting this story :-)

We need more conferences like this. People from both sides should sit together & share ideas. I totally agree with what Rabbi Cohen said:

"when Arab and Jew will be able to live peacefully together as they did for centuries"

If Imam Abu Hanifa can have a Jew neighbor, then why can't we, the Muslims of the 21st century live peacefully with the Jews.

People from both sides should remove hate & misconceptions from their minds & sit together. Violence will never bring the peace that both the Israelis & the Muslims want.

Lirun said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Lirun said...

thats not so accurate..

neturei karta jews believe that israel - as a jewish state - should be established but only once the messiah returns..

they are our equivalent of the hamish..

we are not a gullible people and not easily guided in any direction.. we have so many political parties that you cannot count them..

our regional heritage is not a religious issue..

but bd you are right - there are many perceptions as to who why and how we exist here.. most of them in themselves misguided..

dg - i empathise 100000% with what your last paragraph.. unfortunately i dont believe the conference was arranged to bring us together.. having said that i do wosh for more conferences that air so aimed..

i, Bobo said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
i, Bobo said...

Whoa, hold on there a second, fellas.

The entire purpose of this conference is to present some wholly crackpot theories regarding the Holocaust.

Aproximately nine million people were killed in the Holocaust, five to six million of them of the Jewish faith. Three million others -- Christians, political prisoners, gypsies, homosexuals, Muslims, etc...

It's the 21st Century, folks. We have history based on empirical data -- Himmler and his Schutzstaffel documented everything as they felt the "service" they were doing for the Aryan Nation would be celebrated for generations. Similarly, the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia also documented their atrocities when they sent hundreds of thousands to "the killing fields" during the 1970's.

You think the Palestinians have a legitimate grievance against Israel? You don't like the idea of Islamic holy sites outside of Muslim control? You may have some very valid points. Having said that, it's extraordinarily counter-productive to the Palestinian cause to deny proven historical fact in order to create an alternative history -- for God's sake, you only have to look at the historical fabrications (and re-fabrications every time there was a regime change) of the Soviet Union to prove that point.

This is a slippery slope -- while alternate histories are attractive in the sense that they mobilize the people, they also give the other side the ability to characterize you as shallow, uneducated, and unable to function within the context of a world community.

If you want more information, the WIKIPEDIA ENTRY is a good place to start.

secretdubai said...

unfortunately i dont believe the conference was arranged to bring us together..

Me neither. Regardless of ones sympathies on the issue, holocaust denial is just plain stupid. One doesn't have to be pro or anti-semitic to acknowledge that millions of Jews and others were killed by gas in death camps.

That said I disagree very strongly that holocaust denial should be illegal, as it is in Germany and certain other European countries. People should still have the right to free speech and debate, however fkheaded they may be.

Tim Newman said...

Israel seems to be a state founded on a misguided religious principle for a people who are mostly secular.

It was also founded on the principle of providing a safe haven for the Jews who, having been in a minority everywhere, were persecuted for centuries culminating in some 6m of them ending up in ovens in Europe. The religious aspect of Israel's creation can go to hell as far as I'm concerned, but the practical aspect as described above seems all too often forgotten by some.

blogrosh said...

"It was also founded on the principle of providing a safe haven for the Jews who, having been in a minority everywhere"

Tim - would you be sharing this sentiment, if Israel established itself over the United Kingdom, instead of Palestine?

Anonymous said...

Thank you for such a refreshing commentary
cheap kamas from www.dofus.us
[url=http://www.dofus.us]dofus[/url]
dofus

Hatem said...

“If Imam Abu Hanifa can have a Jew neighbor, then why can't we, the Muslims of the 21st century live peacefully with the Jews.”

True. As for myself and – I think – many other Muslims, we don’t have anything against Jews people (religion-wise). Jews, Christians, and Muslims are three different religions having many things in common, and every one is following his own beliefs. Nothing wrong with that…
On the other hand, Arab peoples (Muslims and Christians) disagree with Zionism, the state of Israel on the land of Palestine at the moment and the “Greater Israel” from river Nile in Egypt to river Al-Furat in Iraq in their planned future. The Israeli flag is the best proof that the plan still exists.

fellow atheist said...

I tend to agree with lirun here. Are these guys for real? They seem like a bunch of whackos.

Extremism is dangerous -- but sometimes, it's just painfully hilarious.

localexpat said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
localexpat said...

A leader whos got BALLS and NO BRAIN is veeeeeery dangerous - Ahmedinejad

Other examples :- Stalin
Hitler
Idi Amin
Pol Pot

I have met many arabs who love this Iranian leader and not a single Iranian who even likes him. To me he is trying to emulate the only charismatic arab leader of the 20th century who stood up to the west- Jamal Abdul Nasser. Since his death the arab masses have been craving for a voice that can speak up against the west.

In comes the current president.

What type of person, who has the ability to read and possesses a rudimentary cognitive ability, would even think that the holocaust didn't take place.

I think he is just trying to make a statement against the west just for the sake of it .

As I said he's got balls alright! but noooo brains !

BD said...

our regional heritage is not a religious issue

But the reason that an Israeli state has been established where it has is based on the religious principle that this territory was given to them by God, is it not? Without this claim--which should have no relevance, especially when many Jews are secular--there is no basis for the establishment of the Israeli state where it is.

It was also founded on the principle of providing a safe haven for the Jews

Some safe haven! Remove a people (the Palestinians) from their land and embed your minority in the midst of a larger region of antagonists? Who's idea was this of a safe haven! Why not try Minnesota or Canada's Northern Territories? I say this state was founded and justified on the bases of a religious claim. It should never have happened.

Keefieboy said...

BD: Argentina had been a serious contender. The idea of the Jewish influx into Palestine was on the
condition that nothing should be done which might prejudice the rights of existing communities there. Hmmm...

Lirun said...

"But the reason that an Israeli state has been established where it has is based on the religious principle that this territory was given to them by God, is it not? Without this claim--which should have no relevance, especially when many Jews are secular--there is no basis for the establishment of the Israeli state where it is.
"


with all due respect - you yourself have explained why your premise is not correct..

its really easy to oversimplify this subject.. and there are many reasons jews and arabs arrived here by the roves during the last century..

my personal decision to remain in israel has nothing to do with religion/economics/politics or anything else..

this is my home.. i consider myself a native of only this place.. i love the desert.. the sun.. the sea.. the stinking humidity.. the noise.. everything..

you can seek out chains of possession over this land that take us back 100 years and you can seek out those that will take us back 2000 years.. we too were kicked out twice before the commencement of the common era and converged back again to the very place we came from..

i dont know that it really matters why and how.. i think the point is that these days we have a big bunch of people that identify themselves as two separate nations..

i too am pro-palestine.. i too believe that the ultimate solution now is for us to live side by side rather than within eachother.. an israeli state and a palestinian state..

these are not exotic ideas..

secretdubai said...

But the reason that an Israeli state has been established where it has is based on the religious principle that this territory was given to them by God, is it not?

Now this is something that puzzles me. When we talk about the "chosen people", are we talking about the Jews that continued as Jews, or are we talking about the Jews - such as Jesus and most of his disciples - who became the first Christians?

What I don't get about American Christian support of Israel is why they have a religious believe that Old Jews somehow trump New Jews, ie Christians.

Also something else that puzzles me: before Palestinians were Muslims and Christians, what were they?

Mme Cyn said...

Secret-- The Arabic people were predominately pagan pre-Islam, with a few monotheists thrown in along with a bit of Zoroastrian spillover from Persia. Or so I have been told.

Lirun said...

my family tree traces back to king david..

blogrosh said...

"I have met many arabs who love this Iranian leader and not a single Iranian who even likes him"

Yup, I agree - I know several Arabs, who think he is the "it" guy when it comes to standing upto America - yet almost all the Iranians I know feel the guy can do no good, so I am suprised, how did he get elected?

I think he is no a good, trouble making, self serving lame politician.

secretdubai said...

"my family tree traces back to king david.."

Every single non-African human being traces back to the same mother via our mitrochondrial DNA, so we're only slaughtering our close relatives with all the conflict going on today. We are all related. Even when you include (pure blood, never-left-Africa) Africans, we are very closely related to one another.

John B. Chilton said...

Caption this.

Lirun said...

secretdubai..

you know yesterday when the 3 palestinian kids were killed i watched the mother on the news.. black hair and olive skin and dark eyes..

while my mother is a middle eastern jewess she is blond with green eyes but also has olive skin..

despite the colour differences - when i saw that lady cry i saw my own mother.. the same tenderness.. the same sorrow.. the same despair that only a mother's eyes can show..

i agree.. whether genetically or otherwise we are all related..

i'm with you dude..

Anonymous said...

Some scientist say that 85% of the current Palestinians are actually jews who reverted to Islam.

@ blogrosh

I agree, why does their country have to be on fromed the expenses of the majority Arabs (Christians & Muslims). Why do we have over 8 million palestanian refugees who are eager to go back to the historical palestine? pre 1948. UK suggested it so maybe they should establish one there or maybe in Germany, the country which killed most of them.

I dont have problem with the native jews who have always lived in palestine who were less than 10% before 1948. They could have lived happily ever after.

My only problem is with the settlers who came by force by the end of the 19th century and kicked the arabs.

i, Bobo said...

how did he get elected?

Slappy got elected primarily because the "Guardian Council" refused to allow most reform candidates to stand for election -- as a result of this interference, the remaining reformists boycotted the election.

For the life of me I will never understand people who boycott elections (the Sunnis in Iraq made a HUGE mistake in this regard).

I guess my point is that the system of government in Iran is not particularly balanced considering the fact that the Supreme Leader (a cleric), the Revolutionary Council, and the Guardian Council all have the ability to block someone's candidacy.

And I'm pretty sure they don't allow write in candidates otherwise one of the guys from FRIENDS would be the President of Iran right now (satellite dishes rule!).

John B. Chilton said...

Caption this hug from the Holocaust conference.

blogrosh said...

Ummmmmm seems more of a liplock than a hug? :)

Rejected said...

Lirun, you are a wounderful person.

Tim Newman said...

Tim - would you be sharing this sentiment, if Israel established itself over the United Kingdom, instead of Palestine?

Yes, I would. At the end of WWII there was a dire need for providing somewhere for the Jews to live where they would not be in a minorty and free from persecution. The debate may rage about where this place should or could have been, but the need for it was most definitely there. Rather too many people forget this, and much as I would agree that the present day Israel was in hindsight a rather daft place for it to be, my point on this thread was that Israel was formed partly for the purpose of providing a safe haven and not just on religious grounds.

Tim Newman said...

I say this state was founded and justified on the bases of a religious claim.

So you reject the entire notion that the provision of a homeland for the Jews following the Holocaust played any role in the creation of Israel?

Anonymous said...

okay Time there is still enough time. Move them to ur country.

oink oink said...

BD states: But the reason that an Israeli state has been established where it has is based on the religious principle that this territory was given to them by God, is it not? Without this claim...there is no basis for the establishment of the Israeli state where it is.

Is that what the British said when choosing the area? That it was God-given? I'm sure the original proposals put forward by the British must contain some documentation supporting this claim. It's worth checking out.

Secretdubai: Now this is something that puzzles me. When we talk about the "chosen people", are we talking about the Jews that continued as Jews, or are we talking about the Jews - such as Jesus and most of his disciples - who became the first Christians?

The 'chosen people' are Abraham's descendants, traced through his grandson Jacob (Israel). Abraham's sons (according to the Bible) were Isaac and Ishmael. Isaac's two sons were Esau and Jacob. Jacob's 12 sons are the 12 tribes of Israel.

I think your error (above) lies in confusing ethnicity with religion. This is often the case when discussing Arabs and Muslims. The two are two very different things. Just as many Arabs are Christians, many Indians, Sri Lankans, American and British people are Muslims.

The Middle East was chosen as a new home for the Jews of Europe possibly because that's where their ancestors originated from. (BD suggests something slightly different; that needs confirmation.)

The first Christians (Jesus' disciples and initial converts from Jerusalem) were ethnic Jews, but subsequent converts to Christianity (both in the East and in the West) were ethnically non-Jewish. They are not Jews, neither 'Old Jews' nor 'New Jews'. Also, there are people whose religion may be Judaism, but who are not ethnically Jews (Ethiopians, for example).

For more information, you could read Genesis 16 to 35 for the Abraham/Jacob story; Gospels/Acts for first/early Christians, including Paul (whose story is in Acts 9).

blogrosh said...

"Yes, I would"

Perhaps you would Tim. I suppose, it is easy to make this statement, when it is not your home under occupation? However I suppose, the rest of the UK, may not share your sentiments. I think your argument reads -" Jews need a safe heaven, hence I am OK if they occupy my home and leave me out in the cold, by the garbage dumpster".

"formed partly for the purpose of providing a safe haven"

Why do you think they need a "safe heaven" - to welcome Christ? But seriously, how could you expect to have a safe heaven thru "occupation"? Moreover, what is it that the Jewish souls have committed, to face persecutions, hence was in need of a safe heaven? I do not believe Israel today is a safe heaven.

I also do not believe, safe heavens should be developed based on religious factions, because there are good and bad in every basket of apples. In today's world, I believe, "safe heavens" created thru occupation leads to further isolation & unfortunate dislike of that ethnicity.

I agree with Lirun's views - "whether genetically or otherwise we are all related" and come from the same heavenly creator, hence should co-exist for a peaceful tomorrow.

J. Edward Tremlett said...

"That said I disagree very strongly that holocaust denial should be illegal, as it is in Germany and certain other European countries. People should still have the right to free speech and debate, however fkheaded they may be."

I agree. And I think this conference was a monumentally stupid idea.

Post a Comment

NOTE: By making a post/comment on this blog you agree that you are solely responsible for its content and that you are up to date on the laws of the country you are posting from and that your post/comment abides by them.

To read the rules click here

If you would like to post content on this blog click here