23 July, 2006

shells

Undoubtedly almost everyone must've seen those photos of little supposed israeli kids writing on shells supposedly belonging to the israeli army.

I implore you to read this article and the blog it links to for a bit of perspective.

31 comments:

nzm said...

The validity of the images was being dicussed over at Seabee's blog.

Harsha said...

Thanx Sam, amazing find.

Woke said...

Thanks for the article sam.

Growing up with a perception that some lives are less precious than others, and it is alright to kill for the larger cause - is there any hope at all?

Seabee said...
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Seabee said...

little supposed israeli kids writing on shells supposedly belonging to the israeli army

Sam, in the interests of accuracy your links confirm quite clearly that supposedly is the wrong choice of word. The photos are genuine, the links give the context in which the kids were encouraged to write on the shells.

Harsha said...

encouraged by the means of some popularity and not to gain contentment with the killings of those in Lebenon.

Yes, to an extent the pictures clearly depict what they seem to, but more so towards the minds behind the war and not those suffering.

Seabee said...

Harsha, that was my point in the piece I wrote under the photo. The mindset is what frightens me. I don't know how we'll ever get peace in the area, and its reverberations around the world, unless the hatred in peoples' minds can be changed. And I mean hatred on both sides of the conflict.

bandicoot said...

The CJR Daily article is a pathetic attempt at damage control. The "context" it provides, whether real or manufactured, doesn't change the chilling image /message. Being "right smack on the border" is no excuse for promoting a death culture. There are many Palestinian and Lebanese children smack in the middle or at the border of a bloody conflict with Israel; would the editors of the CJR accept (or at least find acceptable context) for their embrace of death and violence? The fact is there is just as much hatred for Arabs and fascination with the military in Israel as you'll find on the other side.

Tainted Female said...

IF a few days in a war torn area justifies this of Israeli parenting and children's actions...

What might Palestinian children who have lived in this situation for years feel justified to do? Perhaps suicide bombing?

That's the stunning, incredibly disturbing image these photos make. Period.

No excuse makes it alright on the parents behalf, on the photographers nor on the child's.

Anonymous said...

"The fact is there is just as much hatred for Arabs and fascination with the military in Israel as you'll find on the other side."

Bandicoot is right on the ball. No one side is any better than the other.

bandicoot said...

anonymous - I hope you see that my point relates specifically to the two points about hatred and the fetish for violence. On these two accounts all parties are more or less equally guilty. This however doesn't mean that "no one side is any better than the other" in all given situations and in their relations to specific aspects of the conflict. For example, in the case of this war in Lebanon, Israel, though perhaps was in a stronger or equal position when it was first attacked, has since changed that to its actions to its disadvantage. Its massive bombardment of Lebanese people and systematic destruction of civilian targets are probably punishable as war crimes. There is no equality here.

sand in the vaseline said...

Sam,

Sorry but I don't see what perspective it is you think we should see. Are the photos fake = no. Why should the border proximity affect things? Is it just plain wrong for children to write messages on live ammunition in a war = yes.

samuraisam said...

sand in the vaseline: I was merely trying to bring context and perspective to the photos; I really fail to see how this is any different from Arabic teachers telling their students in Dubai that the Jews run around each year and kill Palestinians to drain blood into their yearly "blood cake", or hearing young Arabic gentlemen saying they'd support Hitler because he killed the Jews; I really fail to see the big fuss being made over this in comparison to how screwed up both sides already are (in my opinion); My problem is everyone is prepared to write about this photo when all it is a photo; you don't know where the hell those kids are from and what they've been through; You can't just sit there and write page upon page about some photo clearly lacking in context.
"the poor kids are next to live munitions!" I hear you say; well allow me to be the first to not give a damn based upon the many Palestinian (to the best of my knowledge) children on TV holding Kalashnikovs and jovially firing them in the air; my opinion is that a loaded assault rifle happens to be just a tad more dangerous than a shell.
Every time I’ve heard an Arabic kid rabbit on about the evil Jewish conspiracy, my ears really are numb from both sides and my opinion is that both sides are probably going to remain forever retarded and end up shelling the shit out of each other achieving absolutely nothing.

seabee: My opinion about the validity of the images is still undetermined; but I posted the link for other people's benefit.

bandicoot said...

Sam - I don't know which is more dangerous, a shell with a death message from a child (or from the parent but signed by the child, which is more evil) or a kalashnikov in the hand of a child -- to technical and much hair splitting involved; I think both are evil and that in both cases it's not the weapon as such but the hatred and the psychology adults, parents and society create.

For many Palestinian children this could be the first step to becoming a suicide bomber or just a gun-totting retard who sees the whole world from the barrel of his gun and is willing to kill or get killed without much reflection or regret. And for many Israelis this could be another detail in bringing up another trigger-happy soldier who at 17 years old could be manning a checkpoint and humiliating people or shooting at protesters without empathy or remorse. Basically, for children from both sides, the dehumanization, hatred and violence (whether as a fantasy, self-inflicted, or imposed) is a reality. And I’m afraid it will continue to be with us as long as the conflict is not resolved.

I personally think the context is important, but the fact is most people take the message they see at face value; and in many cases what you see is what you get and what you get is not that different from the truth. I think this particular case of the Israeli girls is an example of that. Clearly nobody blames the children (I hope), but it’s a case where even if you consider the circumstances mentioned in the article, you’re still shocked at the ease with which that group of parents (perhaps reflecting a social value mindset) can engage in this kind of behavior, not only unmasking their own moral deficiencies, but also pushing their kids to the dark side and make it look like (or honestly think) it’s child play.

Those children in a sense are a casualty of their own parents’ twisted imagination. It's sad, depressing, outrageous, and despicable; and no amount of contextualizing can help make it any more acceptable. Similarly no context (though "mitigating circumstances" are plenty) can justify giving a Palestinian child a gun (or even a toy gun) and start filling his or her head with the hatred for Jews or Israelis or any other group of people.

I don't know, there is always a chance that I’m being unfair or might have missed something in my reading of this picture. But knowing what I know about this photograph, I still feel it’s one case where the parents screwed up big time, most likely because they have the aptitude to be like that or even because they are completely screwed anyway.

Anonymous said...

If I were an Israeli living in Northern Israel and Hezbollah rockets were raining down on my home, my kids wouldn't be writing on shells.

They'd be helping me load them.

i, Bobo said...

Both sides are equally crazy when it comes to the kids...

bandicoot said...

anonymous - whoever you are, you prove the point; obviously there are people (like you) who are more than willing to use their own children. May be you make a "good" pimp, but certainly not a good parent.

Tim Newman said...
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Anonymous said...

Willing to use my own children to help defend a cross-border rocket attack on my home? Absolutely.

What's the alternative? Hide behind them like the Islamofascists do?

Woke said...

Anon@24 July, 2006 13:27
Defending against attacks is one thing. Attacking innocents is another. The question is - will you use your children to launch attacks on another country if a terrorist group from that country attacks yours? Whatever your answer is, mine is no.

bandicoot said...

anonymous- Thank you for proving my point yet again. Even if it's true that's what the other side is doing (an issue that is generally more propaganda than fact) then you're doing the exact same thing; and that doesn't make you any better.

Anonymous said...

Defending against attacks is one thing. Attacking innocents is another.

Personally, if some terrorist gang decides to rain rockets down on my house with my kids inside then I will defend myself and my family with no regard whatsoever for innocents who may be hanging around the terrorists.

Sorry folks, but if I'm forced to choose between defending my kids and possibly hurting some innocents and do nothing while terrorists attack them, then I will do the former every time.

Anonymous said...

Bandicoot,

You are talking shite. There is a difference between defending yourself against a rocket attack and instigating a rocket attack. Those who do the latter are terrorists, those who do the former morally in the right.

Woke said...

I wonder how many of those who got killed in Lebanon were "hanging around terrorists".

And you are morally right if you defend against people who attack you. If you start to define these 'people' as an entire nation who has nothing to do with terrorists, that is unjustifiable and uncivilised.

Anonymous said...

Well yes, quite.

But for those who are struggling to understand. If by some chance you or anyone else decides to start firing at my house when I have not done nothing to you but exist, then expect a barrage of fire in return from not only me but any of my kids who are old enough to hold a weapon.

If you happen to be stood beside some innocent people when you launch your attack and my return fire kills them then their blood will be on your hands, not mine.

The best course of action for everyone concerned is not to launch an attack on my home in the first place.

Woke said...

And if I attack your home, you might not as well harm my neighbour. Because he doesnt know anything about it.

By the way you can always call the cops instead.

Anonymous said...

Cops take time to arrive. And I would not put your neighbour's life above those of my children. Sorry, but that's the way it is.

bandicoot said...
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bandicoot said...

anon - You don't get it, do you? This is not about who started what, who attacks or defends, or who the hell is hanging around your enemies when you shoot them, etc; it's simply about the idea of USING CHILDREN to commit violence (directly or indirectly); and this is WRONG; period. Now if this is "shite', that's fine with me; I'll leave all the gems of wisdom for your; OK? I'm done with this topic.

Anonymous said...

Bandicoot,

I acknowledge that you will run away like a coward screaming "Think of the children!" when somebody launches an unprovoked attack on your home, but some of us see little wrong with a family defending itself against terrorists.

Woke said...

Goodness me anon. Let me try one last time.

In the context of the Israeli kids signing on the shells aimed at Lebanon (which incidentally has people like you and me) and NOT directly aimed at a terrorist group.
I(and many people here as well I think) wouldnt find it appropriate if my kids sign on those shells, let alone help me get them loaded.
On the other hand, if you feel this is appropriate, you have every right to think so.

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